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MIL Flashing, P0087, P0301, rough idle, hesitation, fuel smell.

Started by Deebeaux, June 20, 2016, 10:36:12 AM

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Deebeaux

Long time lurker, first time poster, usually my questions are resolved by just searching. I'm at a crossroads now. I got my 2014 SHO non-PP back in January with 25k on it. It's been flawless up until now (32k miles or so) with just performing normal maintenance. Took the car to the in-laws yesterday for Father's Day celebrations. It's about 75 miles one way, had zero issues on the way. Fueled up, had to take the longer way home due to a road closure, but cruised back at 55-60 on some winding country roads home with no issues, and merged back onto the Interstate heading home. Guy in a minivan in front of me was trying to merge onto the highway at 40, so I gave the SHO about 75% throttle to go around and noticed some hesitation when passing. The MIL began to flash and the car had a definite miss. I pulled over, restarted, but the same result. I was only about 10 miles from home so I limped my way back on back roads only accelerating very slowly and parked in my driveway. Loaded up Torque Pro and scanned to find P0301 as a trouble code and P0087 as a pending code. Restarting the car is more difficult now (5-7 seconds of cranking before fire, occasionally longer) and it still has the miss.

When turning the car on the fuel rail pressure spikes to about 100psi and settles around 35-45psi. Once it cranks and idles it seems to hover around 180-220, but it's not stable. (I've got videos if it helps.) There's a definite fuel smell when it's idling rough, my guess is the injector spray pattern is crap, perhaps due to low fuel pressure, and it's not burning properly. The HPFP is noisy, but I don't know if it's noisier than it should be as I never had the engine cover and the sound proofing material off of it with it running before.

The car is out of warranty because it's a salvage car. It had fresh water flood water inside of it, but not even high enough to even damage the seats, no water was in the engine, and I doubt it was high enough to affect the in-tank pump and certainly not high enough to damage the HPFP. I really don't think this is residual damage from that's just coming up 7,000 miles later. It's not my first salvage or flood car, and probably won't be my last. Haha.

I'm trying to repair this myself, leaning toward the HPFP, but before I drop $300+ on one, I wanted to know if there's a better way to diagnose besides towing to the dealer. Our dealer here is notorious for charging full list for everything and every diagnostic fee and labor hour possible. I only got misfire on one cylinder which makes me think maybe injector, but unsure why that would cause low fuel pressure unless it was just stuck open. I've also read other folks having LPFP problems, but when powering on the car the rail primes to 100psi or so. I've also seem a few mentions of the fuel control module, but I don't know if there's shade-tree diagnostic method for that. I did just fill up 75-85 miles before the issue, bad gas could be a possibility, but it took an hour of solid driving before any issues appeared and I think it would've happened sooner.

Is there's a service manual available somewhere inexpensively where there's troubleshooting steps available, or specs on what fuel pressure is supposed to be during various phases of prime, start-up, idle, running?

Any advice is much appreciated. I sure miss driving the SHO every day. Oh, and the car is bone stock.
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

sholxgt

Just a thought...

I would pull the coil and plug on cylinder #1 and see what it looks like and make sure that coil is firing and that plug isn't trashed.

Thinking that the low fuel pressure code may be coming up just from it having to crank so much to get started?  The fuel pressure varies greatly in these cars.

Another possible idea is a bad or clogged injector on cylinder #1.  Maybe got bad gas when you filled up?
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

Deebeaux

P0087 was present before the long crank times. It was present when I got home and left it idling just long enough to pull the codes.

Bad gas has crossed my mind more than once. I'll pull that coil and plug when I get home from lunch and check.

Is there a recommended fuel injector cleaner, or am I just stuck replacing or sending the injector off somewhere?

Thanks for the reply!

Quote from: sholxgt on June 20, 2016, 11:26:14 AM
Just a thought...

I would pull the coil and plug on cylinder #1 and see what it looks like and make sure that coil is firing and that plug isn't trashed.

Thinking that the low fuel pressure code may be coming up just from it having to crank so much to get started?  The fuel pressure varies greatly in these cars.

Another possible idea is a bad or clogged injector on cylinder #1.  Maybe got bad gas when you filled up?
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

SHOdded

p0087 might be related to the LPFP and/or the FPCM, see this post by BiGMaC:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,299.msg70631.html#msg70631

p0301 probably injector leaking, that is a fairly common problem on these engines.  But hoping it is a plug/coil.  If the coil/plug is submerged in oil, then you have another common problem:  valve cover gasket leak on that bank, though typically an issue with cylinder 3 not 1.

No known studies on FI cleaners for DI systems, so can't say what to use.  But Techron and BG 44K have been my standbys for many years (non-DI), and have worked very well.  I think Valvoline FI cleaner also works pretty ok.  No harm in trying!  But if injector is that far gone, most likely you will have to replace it.

Might as well do all the plugs if that plug ends up being gapped over 0.040.  Not urgent for a bone stock SHO, but then you have a good baseline also. Motorcraft SP534s are fine.

And you can pick up a cheap manual on CD from EBay.  probably not for 2014, but 2012-13 CDs should be available, and the 2013 on should work for your '14.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Deebeaux

I'll check that plug/coil tonight after work. Was going to do it at lunch until I realized Cylinder #1 is up against the firewall. Anyway to diagnose injector leaking other than replacing it? Swap to another cylinder? Probably no home game version of cleaning that injector either, I presume?

I'll keep an eye out for a mess of oil. Valve cover gasket on the back bank looks like a lot of fun.

I saw BiGMaC's post in my research, but didn't want to just willy nilly start throwing parts at it. I guess there's no harm in starting with the cheapest part and working my way up. It'd likely be cheaper than a trip to the dealer either way. LOL.

A guy at work brought up Techron, but specifically Gumout Regane as it's got the highest known percentage of PEA (30-50%), but it's likely very close to the Techron Concentrate. Might grab a bottle of either just for the hell of it. BG 44K has been a standby for years for me as well, but haven't needed to use any FI cleaner in a while.

I'll check the gap on that plug as well. I've been wanting a Livernois tune for a while and held off on plugs until then, but maybe if I can get the car to behave I'll just pull the trigger on the tune. Iridiums should come pre-gapped correct? I've read they're easy to damage gapping yourself.

Good call on the eBay CD. I've got an e-mail into what appears to be a reliable seller now asking if I can download before he ships it as I'm looking to get my hands on it quicker.

Thanks for the insight so far. Glad to have a community behind the car, makes me feel better about having issues vs. just winging it. I really love my SHO as my daily driver and every day I'm stuck driving something else just isn't as nice.

Quote from: SHOdded on June 20, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
p0087 might be related to the LPFP and/or the FPCM, see this post by BiGMaC:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,299.msg70631.html#msg70631

p0301 probably injector leaking, that is a fairly common problem on these engines.  But hoping it is a plug/coil.  If the coil/plug is submerged in oil, then you have another common problem:  valve cover gasket leak on that bank, though typically an issue with cylinder 3 not 1.

No known studies on FI cleaners for DI systems, so can't say what to use.  But Techron and BG 44K have been my standbys for many years (non-DI), and have worked very well.  I think Valvoline FI cleaner also works pretty ok.  No harm in trying!  But if injector is that far gone, most likely you will have to replace it.

Might as well do all the plugs if that plug ends up being gapped over 0.040.  Not urgent for a bone stock SHO, but then you have a good baseline also. Motorcraft SP534s are fine.

And you can pick up a cheap manual on CD from EBay.  probably not for 2014, but 2012-13 CDs should be available, and the 2013 on should work for your '14.
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

sholxgt

Quote from: SHOdded on June 20, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
valve cover gasket leak on that bank, though typically an issue with cylinder 3 not 1.


Been there with mine.  I was surprised that I had no codes or misfire.  Plug wells looked the the Exxon Valdez cruised past my car. LOL

If the injector is leaking badly enough, you may see signs of it on the plug.  Post a picture when you pull it.  These new cars are harder to diagnose with plug readings because the ignition systems are so much better at cleaning any signs of trouble.

Good luck!  I know it's never fun.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

FoMoCoSHO

If you have a leaky injector you may see it in the fuel trims of whatever bank its on.


Deebeaux

Well, did some testing with Torque Pro at lunch watching fuel trims. YouTube video here...

One code went away, but another appeared making me think it's an injector. P0301 remains, but P0087 has been traded for P00C6. Some quick Search-fu and that looks almost always injector related. Going to pull that plug and coil tonight. Hopefully it's not a bad job, the part appears fairly inexpensive to replace. Anything else I should replace while I've got it apart if it turns out to be the injector? Any recommended vendor for the injector? Tasca seems inexpensive and reliable.
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

ZSHO



2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

93Cobra

A cheap and easy test is to swap in new sp534 spark plugs. I would be willing to bet you have a condensate induced misfire from buildup in the intercooler.

sholxgt

Quote from: 93Cobra on June 20, 2016, 03:41:17 PM
A cheap and easy test is to swap in new sp534 spark plugs. I would be willing to bet you have a condensate induced misfire from buildup in the intercooler.

Are you starting a theory that condensate causes low fuel pressure and that condensate only affects cylinder #1?
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

Deebeaux

@ZSHO First, thanks for your input! I'm a bit confused. Your first link is to a "fuel pressure sensor" and the #25 in the second link is a "fuel pump relay." Are you suggesting one or both as the culprit? Do you think either of these would cause a misfire in just a single cylinder?

Quote from: ZSHO on June 20, 2016, 02:55:08 PM
Welcome aboard the EBPF Dee,might want to also consider replacing this sensor which relates to P00C6 which is fairly cheap.  Z     http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=%2b5tY2wBVFnyG7onPlL9O2A%3d%3d&id=355870013&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus     http://www.levittownfordoemparts.com/auto-parts/2014/ford/taurus/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/fuel-system-cat/fuel-system-components-scat  #25 on Diagram.  Z
@93Cobra I'm inclined to agree with sholxgt as we're chasing down a single cylinder issue and I've read about the I/C condensate issues, but I'm not convinced that's the problem I'm having. If you've got some further insight I'm open, but I'm trying to run the "most to least probable" diagnostic path to find my resolution. I'm grateful for the community's assistance and welcome enlightenment if I'm missing something in my logic.

Quote from: sholxgt on June 20, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
Quote from: 93Cobra on June 20, 2016, 03:41:17 PM
A cheap and easy test is to swap in new sp534 spark plugs. I would be willing to bet you have a condensate induced misfire from buildup in the intercooler.

Are you starting a theory that condensate causes low fuel pressure and that condensate only affects cylinder #1?
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

Deebeaux

Okay. got the coil and plug out in #1. Of course it had to be the cylinder with the most crap in the way. (#1 is firewall side passenger-most cylinder, right?) First, some good news, coil pack was bone dry. Plug came out easily, did smell a bit of fuel. I haven't started the car since the video I took about 5-6 hours ago. Pics attached. I haven't diagnosed a DI engine via plug health yet and I welcome your input. Thanks!

Plugs are Motorcraft CYFS12YT3. Are those OE or did previous owner have the wrong plugs put in trying to chase this issue down before?

EDIT: The plug I pulled was gapped between .030 and .034.
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune

sholxgt

I had to look at my plug box to figure out that CYFS-12Y-T3 is the number for the SP-534.  Those are the correct factory plugs for a 2014.

The plug doesn't look bad, but the fuel smell is curious.  I see some discoloration on the ceramic part, but I don't know if that's enough for any kind of concern.  As I said, these modern ignitions systems do a good job of cleaning up any mess that would normally make reading the plug more valuable.

Can your scan tool provide the fuel pressure that the low pressure pump is providing?
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

Deebeaux

Unfortunately my hardware Scan Tool kinda stops around '07 and gives me limited information about the SHO in the data stream, however I do have Torque Pro. If the LPFP pressure output data is available on the CAN bus I can probably get it. Has anyone accomplished that or do I need to do some digging?

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to the fuel smell? Maybe something is saturated from a poor spray pattern due to insufficient input pressure?

Quote from: sholxgt on June 20, 2016, 07:14:01 PM
I had to look at my plug box to figure out that CYFS-12Y-T3 is the number for the SP-534.  Those are the correct factory plugs for a 2014.

The plug doesn't look bad, but the fuel smell is curious.  I see some discoloration on the ceramic part, but I don't know if that's enough for any kind of concern.  As I said, these modern ignitions systems do a good job of cleaning up any mess that would normally make reading the plug more valuable.

Can your scan tool provide the fuel pressure that the low pressure pump is providing?
2020 Tesla Model S Performance FSD
[SOLD!] 2014 Tuxedo nonPP | 401A, driver assist, nav, multi-contoured seat | AEM drop-in, Unleashed 3bar 93 tune