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No Meth required 403WHP/527WTQ

Started by AJP turbo, June 07, 2016, 01:01:10 AM

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Vortech347

Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

AJP turbo

J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

sholxgt

Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 08:57:39 PM
J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

I don't know all of the variable, but I suspect that both smoke and mirrors are included.  LOL

My very, very basic understanding of late model Fords is that the majority of tuning is just altering the demanded torque.  The ECU does most of the in between work.  Is that correct?

In some ways, I see the modern tuning as similar to a piggy back system since you can't, as far as I know, actually control the timing, fuel, boost, etc. to a great degree.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

AJP turbo

#33
Quote from: sholxgt on June 07, 2016, 09:09:13 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 08:57:39 PM
J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

I don't know all of the variable, but I suspect that both smoke and mirrors are included.  LOL

My very, very basic understanding of late model Fords is that the majority of tuning is just altering the demanded torque.  The ECU does most of the in between work.  Is that correct?

In some ways, I see the modern tuning as similar to a piggy back system since you can't, as far as I know, actually control the timing, fuel, boost, etc. to a great degree.

Really it all comes down to airflow and cylinder pressure....i would say just the ecoboost use the demanded torque model....a mustang cant give anymore tq once the throttle is open ...an ecoboost with turbo can deliver variable tq due to turbo right...

Piggyback are the worst....not comparable here at all

We basically have full control with sct software....and can change values within the range of values allowed by the ecu

When you load a custom tune. You are writing a tune the same way ford does...you are just setting the values to what you want....we are basically playing ford calibrator

You absolutely CAN control boost spark or timing and fuel to whatever you want...its called tuning....with your torrie or lms tune, you arent going over top of the factory calibration or manipulating the tune you are re-writing the calibration

No smoke and mirrrors...you are changing the operation of the hardware

It would be really easy to run 30 psi and 40 degrees of spark and blow the head through the hood...we have that kind of control
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

AJP turbo

Jwill what makes you think you cant control those items such as spark fuel or boost?...where did you hear that

Im not sure if you can read log well but that's exactly what ive done...commanded the spark fuel and boost to precisely what i wanted
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

sholxgt

#35
Thanks for the info!  My other current day knowledge is based off a friends Focus ST that operates similarly.

The demanded torque idea is new to me.  I didn't know that you could still also set the timing at x rpm/throttle position as well.  What happens if you set the timing, but the tune does not meet the demanded torque?

These do not sound like the easiest vehicles to tune.  Tuning used to be just spark and fuel (both alterable for when and how) and then the car made whatever power/torque it did with no overriding.

Please excuse any ignorance.  I am enjoying the tutorial.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

AJP turbo

The tuning is rediculous...there are a few thousand items to change if you want

The timing you set is based on engine load not pedal or throttle position

If load is x then there is a table for spark based on load
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

J-Will

Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 08:57:39 PM
J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

Thats a good question.  We have reputable tuners, however they are for-profit, so there is a limit to what they share with the community.  From what I gather, adjustments can be broken down into these high level catagories:
increase in boost - how that is achieved seems to be indirect, using a method to call for more power which in turn increases boost demand
Fuel - We've heard from both the big tuners that fuel runs out quick on our platform, which is why meth is recommended.  This implies that they have some control over supplying it. 
Spark - Its recommended to change plugs to a colder heat range.  I assume tuners are advancing timing
Transmission - messing with shift firmness/ speed

Looking at the list, its a no-brainer.  Those are the basic components to a combustion engine.  Make more power by adjusting the spark, and supplying more air (increasing boost) and fuel.  I am by no means saying that is an easy thing to accomplish.  However, like I mentioned, the secret sauce remains secret. 

We get to ask you questions, because you did the work.  That arms us (me anyway) to ask better questions to a tuner.
2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap

AJP turbo

#38
J will there really is no secret sauce...get boost up and add as much spark as your fuel and individual car will tolerate and the power is there

The method of adding boost seems indirect but its the system that ford and most drive by wire cars employ today...everything starts at the pedal...the driver demands more torque from the pedal then the car takes over and gives you what you think you want

You can set timing or spark to whatever you want...basically with forced induction tuning , you set spark just shy of whatever the fuel can tolerate

We have full control of fuel with sct

Its really not fair or accurate to say the 3.5 ecoboost runs out of fuel quickly....but the limitation is a hardware issue not a tuning issue

The fuel system we have is actually pretty strong and impressive..we are increasing hp/tq way over stock ...its unfair to say the fuel sytem is taxed because we cant add 200hp and 300ft lbs without needing an upgrade....what fuel system wouldnt?

The way i increased output on this tune is exactly how ford would...it can be done that way with sct but i dont know how other tuners are utilizing the software...there are ways to force a result that is less than ideal

Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Sinister-CO



Quote from: AJP turbo on June 08, 2016, 05:33:49 PM
Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car

You might be generalizing a bit here. Some platforms respond better to timing and others to boost. I suppose the ecoboost might fit this bill, but haven't we seen logs where some run more boost with less timing and others more timing with less boost? Sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your car. I doubt many other tuners would put in the time that you have.
2015 Explorer Sport
2004 Explorer Sport Trac
2003 V-Rod - Black/Silver Anniversary Edition
1987 Grand National - High 11's at altitude

AJP turbo

Quote from: Sinister-CO on June 08, 2016, 10:14:45 PM


Quote from: AJP turbo on June 08, 2016, 05:33:49 PM
Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car

You might be generalizing a bit here. Some platforms respond better to timing and others to boost. I suppose the ecoboost might fit this bill, but haven't we seen logs where some run more boost with less timing and others more timing with less boost? Sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your car. I doubt many other tuners would put in the time that you have.

You always are running less than mbt spark with pump gas and forced induction...so the fuel is the limitation...so in that case you want as much spark as the fuel will tolerate at any load

I know what you are thinking...but there can be differences in what a persons car/fuel combo can handle from car to car...but all things being equal . Its all about cylinder pressure...so max spark on max boost will always be best until the boost is so high the turbo becomes inefficient
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

AJP turbo

More boost and less spark would be needless stress on the turbo

You simply want the most cylinder pressure the fuel can handle at the lowest boost for the sake of the turbo

All the tunes except the stock one in my dyno testing were at the max spark i saw as safe according to the knock sensor...so less boost was always less power
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Sinister-CO

Yeah, I get it. I was just saying that different platforms respond differently. Regardless it's obvious that you've got a good tune running there. Nice work!
2015 Explorer Sport
2004 Explorer Sport Trac
2003 V-Rod - Black/Silver Anniversary Edition
1987 Grand National - High 11's at altitude

AJP turbo

Shodded you asked before about my maintenance schedule......Just normal stuff really''

At 2k I put in amsoil severe gear PTU and RDU fluid and plan on changing them both every 25-30k or 2 years..Amsoil recommends those to go much longer though

At 2k I put in Amsoil LV signature trans fluid also flushed the converter also...Plan on doing that maybe at 50k...Amsoil says to go much longer than that also

Oil is Amsoil signature 0w-30 every 5k with amsoil filter

I have 20k on her now

I still have stock plugs and may put new stock plugs in at 50k and probably new coolant and brake fluid then too.

SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

JDW1

Quote from: AJP turbo on June 08, 2016, 05:33:49 PM
J will there really is no secret sauce...get boost up and add as much spark as your fuel and individual car will tolerate and the power is there

The method of adding boost seems indirect but its the system that ford and most drive by wire cars employ today...everything starts at the pedal...the driver demands more torque from the pedal then the car takes over and gives you what you think you want

You can set timing or spark to whatever you want...basically with forced induction tuning , you set spark just shy of whatever the fuel can tolerate

We have full control of fuel with sct

Its really not fair or accurate to say the 3.5 ecoboost runs out of fuel quickly....but the limitation is a hardware issue not a tuning issue

The fuel system we have is actually pretty strong and impressive..we are increasing hp/tq way over stock ...its unfair to say the fuel sytem is taxed because we cant add 200hp and 300ft lbs without needing an upgrade....what fuel system wouldnt?

The way i increased output on this tune is exactly how ford would...it can be done that way with sct but i dont know how other tuners are utilizing the software...there are ways to force a result that is less than ideal

Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car

I don't see how you run that much boost and don't see FP drop to unsafe levels.  I've had to dial back way before that level.  It's very impressive. 
13 SHO, Unleashed 3bar Tune, 1 step cooler NGK's, MDesign CAI, 170 t-stat and meth.