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No Meth required 403WHP/527WTQ

Started by AJP turbo, June 07, 2016, 01:01:10 AM

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AJP turbo

Yeah im looking forward to time slips as well...and scott yeah i expect a slight reduction at frigid temps but the 1500-1600 minimum that i hit with this i feel good about the headroom that is left in it for cooler temps....also its not as low as some other tunes i have seen that are currently tearing it up

And yeah timing will be pulled as the temps rise...same as any other tune that is properly set up....so instead of being at 16 degrees i may be at 14 on a warmer day....although ambient temps are in play they arent the main factor..its the temp in the manifold...iat2
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

AJP turbo

Not  really looking play with meth..although i cant deny the benefits...but i daily this car and just dont care to do the work and its fast enough and im not crazy about the fuel tuning that i see

I think i would do an even 20 psi and the same spark as i run with 17 psi with meth if i did...if you see my graphs my boost is even as seen in the log but look how bad torque drops off...to me that means that at high rpm the turbo is out of "breath " and past its efficiency....20 psi midrange would look good i think
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

J-Will

20 is roughly double stock, and even 17 is few more than LMS (I believe their more performance tune tops out at 15).  You are also creating more boost, sooner. 

Are you worried about wearing down the turbos prematurely?

In my novice head, is seems easy to up the boost and call it a day.  Yet thats not the approach other turners are doing.
2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap

AJP turbo

#18
Quote from: J-Will on June 07, 2016, 01:16:56 PM
20 is roughly double stock, and even 17 is few more than LMS (I believe their more performance tune tops out at 15).  You are also creating more boost, sooner. 

Are you worried about wearing down the turbos prematurely?

In my novice head, is seems easy to up the boost and call it a day.  Yet thats not the approach other turners are doing.

Im running less than the meth heads and less than ive seen in some unleashed tunes...and based on wastegate duty cycles and the relatively short time you spend at wot im not really worried about destroying $500 turbos

Lms doesnt seem to do much custom tuning so it doesnt surpris me their tunes run less boost

Actually its not easy to "up" the boost and call it a day as the only way i found to get the boost to come in where and when i wanted it was to figure it out myself..based on some logs ive seen , commanding boost is not simple for some tuners

I havent even seen spark commanded properly

So what is the approach other tuners are taking?...im actually curious on how you percieve their approach on tunes to be?
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

AJP turbo

Also the logs that were posted from lms had a target boost of about 189 kpa in their 3bar tune....in my 14 psi 2 bar tune i targeted about 193 kpa.....stock 2 bar will read 206 kpa so i wouldnt even use a 3 bar for lms boost levels
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

sholxgt

AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears? 
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

ZSHO

Congrat"s on the newly found" fountain of youth "and may it live long and Prosper my friend.  Z    :thumb:


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Scott4957

#22
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 01:28:58 PM
So what is the approach other tuners are taking?...im actually curious on how you percieve their approach on tunes to be?

I am wondering the same thing. From what I understand, commanded boost can't be adjusted by gear or RPM, I see that boost is quite a bit lower in 1'st and 2nd gear on my tune. I also notice that the WGDC seems to follow this. So is the WGDC what is limiting boost in these lower gears, and is that something that you can adjust as the tuner or is the car/tune limiting torque or load in those gears? Again, i would be curious to see a street log to compare to mine, the dyno log is just a little snip of my 0-110mph logs. One thing is for sure, you have to be doing damn near as well on that tune as I am on meth and you are running less boost. Spark seems about the same, again just looking at that small section that matches up with my logs. Well done, it appears you figured something out. 

I get your take on meth. My thought would be a small nozzle just to give you some extra fuel on those cold days and to give you the extra cooling on the hot days. Maybe its a tune you only run when you are out at the strip or tearing up the streets on the weekends. It does appear that the dip in your torque and a bit in the horsepower is associated with the dip in fuel pressure. Nothing that seems significant but it was interesting seeing how that lined up in the log and the dyno graph! Thanks again for sharing this stuff, your posts combined with some books I have been reading have finally got me over the initial hump of getting a grasp on understanding this stuff. Still trying to get a good grasp on what parameters are changed on this particular motor to get the results you want, but I am picking that up piece by piece as well. If I'm ever out your way I owe you a beer!
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

AJP turbo

Quote from: sholxgt on June 07, 2016, 01:43:04 PM
AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears?

No torque management in low gears...there is a level of tq management for every shift up and down ...i use tq management for the sake of drivetrain preservation ...not all datalogs ive seen have kept that in tact

The level or torque i command is based on pedal position and not gear based...i havent seen any way that the ecu alters boost by gear...and i dont see it being nessasary with awd....i stomp the pedal and let it eat
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

sholxgt

Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on June 07, 2016, 01:43:04 PM
AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears?

No torque management in low gears...there is a level of tq management for every shift up and down ...i use tq management for the sake of drivetrain preservation ...not all datalogs ive seen have kept that in tact

The level or torque i command is based on pedal position and not gear based...i havent seen any way that the ecu alters boost by gear...and i dont see it being nessasary with awd....i stomp the pedal and let it eat

Interesting.  I assumed (and I know what that does, lol) that there was a form of torque management that is gear dependent built in from the factory.  Using Torque to monitor my car stock, it looks like I have less boost in first gear.  Maybe it's just due to less load/time under load?

I had a GM car and no tuner was able to eliminate the torque management in that particular application.  Probably for the best since it spun bad regardless.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

ElvenSho

How about you send that tune over to me so i can test it against my unleashed tune this weekend at the track? :) is that even possible?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

2011 Red Taurus SHO- H&R springs, plugs, t-stat, 3bar, LMS dps, tuned by Torrie

Scott4957

Quote from: sholxgt on June 07, 2016, 01:58:42 PM
Interesting.  I assumed (and I know what that does, lol) that there was a form of torque management that is gear dependent built in from the factory.  Using Torque to monitor my car stock, it looks like I have less boost in first gear.  Maybe it's just due to less load/time under load?

I was wondering the same thing. Obviously I have the throttle 100% open on this. Green is RPM's, Orange is boost and Red is WGDC. All my logs have that dip in boost at the end of 1st gear, and it seems to coincide with the wastegate opening. Question is why? Traction control is off but I think the non PP cars or maybe just the MKS has some additional nanny systems that can't be turned off like the PP cars. AJ, do you get this same dip in boost?

2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

AJP turbo

Ill try and write more later but its not tq management giving you the low boost in low gears...you just need better boost control...look at my log for my 17psi pull...watch my boost at redline and see how much more wastegate duty it takes to maintain that boost
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Scott4957

Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 04:04:09 PM
Ill try and write more later but its not tq management giving you the low boost in low gears...you just need better boost control...look at my log for my 17psi pull...watch my boost at redline and see how much more wastegate duty it takes to maintain that boost

Thanks, I appreciate the input. I do see what you are saying about your log. I am at 90% now in 4th, but WDDC sags a bit in 3rd and I think it would keep the boost better to redline if it was higher. I just want to speak intelligently to the changes I want made if I ask Torrie to do something different. I will have to look over past revisions and see how or if WGDC has changed to tell if he has been working on that or not. He may be limiting boost in first and second to ensure a safe tune as well, i really don't know.
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

AJP turbo

You cant really limit boost by gear....or change wastegate duty cycle...the wastegates are doing what they need to , to achieve the boost..by nature its just hard to hit target boost in low gears...the speed of the rpm sweep and less load being applied makes it hard to hit target boost in 1st and 2nd

The tq reductions and management happens at the shifts for the most part...if any of you are getting low boost in low gears its due to the tuning...not tq reductions...look at your "desired tip" when you log...if you are not hitting des tip its not a matter of tq reductions..when tq management is being applied you will see a "tq source value" and desired tip will be reduced also
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress