Dyno appointment, a few questions

[hawkeye93]

I found an AWD dyno just a few miles from my workplace, so I scheduled a short session with my XSport after work on Thursday.  It's a speed shop that specializes in import stuff.  They're going to charge me $80 for 2 pulls.  It's a Mustang "Heartbreaker" dyno, so I'm not expecting huge numbers.  I have 2 goals that I'm trying to satisfy: (1) get a baseline before I install my meth system, and (2) compare my Unleashed & Livernois tunes.  I also plan to datalog my pulls so I have more data to compare.

Here are my questions:

(1) Do you mash the pedal, or ease into it as you accelerate?

(2) I assume you run with the transmission in Manual mode, what gear?  Will it hold gear until redline?

(3) Does it matter which traction mode I use?  Should I use Normal mode, or maybe Sand mode?

(4) I'm currently using a K&N air filter in the stock airbox, but I also have an MDesign CAI.  Since I may use the MDesign when I install my meth system (to free up some space under the hood), do you think I should install that?

I have a full tank of 91 octane, so I'll be testing my Unleashed 91 v2 (revised once after datalogging) and my Livernois 91 Performance v5.  My mods are 3-bar MAP, NGK 6510 plugs @ .030, Reische 170* thermostat, PPE catted downpipes, and the abovementioned air intake.  The datalog used for the Unleashed revision did not include the downpipes; they're new.

[Scott4957]

I can't comment on the dyno part, but I can tell you one revision on your Unleashed tune is far from done. Just comparing 60-90 times from one revision to the next there was a VERY big difference between my first revision and my 8th and final revision. Same goes for my meth tune which is on its 3rd right now and not complete yet. If you want to compare the tunes its best to finish your revisions with Torrie.

[peppelepugh]

when i did my dyno. the shop did all the work to get my car strapped in, one of the shop tech's did the pulls. He put it in manual, got her into 3rd, traction control off, and eased into it till around 2000-2500? then mashed the pedal. 

It will hold gear till redline, but if you mash the pedal too early, my car downshifts EVEN WHEN IN MANUAL MODE.

MDesign or AirAid... just go with what you plan on using in the long run. they're both about equal in performance IMO

[AJP turbo]

Yeah u need to ease the pedal to avoid the downshift unless you make the adjustment in the tune.

Most likely the shop will operate the dyno and drive the car..

I dont know how that particular dyno works but i wouldnt use it unless the rollers or hub adapters are mechanically linked front to rear, otherwise you will be relying on the clutch packs in the rdu to spin the roller and that burns up the clutches

[hawkeye93]

Thanks for the info.  It's a Mustang MD-AWD-500 dyno.  According to Mustang's website, the rollers are mechanically linked.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[FoMoCoSHO]

when i did my dyno. the shop did all the work to get my car strapped in, one of the shop tech's did the pulls. He put it in manual, got her into 3rd, traction control off, and eased into it till around 2000-2500? then mashed the pedal. 

It will hold gear till redline, but if you mash the pedal too early, my car downshifts EVEN WHEN IN MANUAL MODE.

MDesign or AirAid... just go with what you plan on using in the long run. they're both about equal in performance IMO

Torrie can fix it so it wont downshift, that is how mine is setup.

[peppelepugh]

when i did my dyno. the shop did all the work to get my car strapped in, one of the shop tech's did the pulls. He put it in manual, got her into 3rd, traction control off, and eased into it till around 2000-2500? then mashed the pedal. 

It will hold gear till redline, but if you mash the pedal too early, my car downshifts EVEN WHEN IN MANUAL MODE.

MDesign or AirAid... just go with what you plan on using in the long run. they're both about equal in performance IMO

Torrie can fix it so it wont downshift, that is how mine is setup.

HE CAN?!?!?! Looks like i'll be contacting Torrie Soon! Hopefully it works with the X4 and the 2011 Non-PP

[AJP turbo]

when i did my dyno. the shop did all the work to get my car strapped in, one of the shop tech's did the pulls. He put it in manual, got her into 3rd, traction control off, and eased into it till around 2000-2500? then mashed the pedal. 

It will hold gear till redline, but if you mash the pedal too early, my car downshifts EVEN WHEN IN MANUAL MODE.

MDesign or AirAid... just go with what you plan on using in the long run. they're both about equal in performance IMO

Torrie can fix it so it wont downshift, that is how mine is setup.

HE CAN?!?!?! Looks like i'll be contacting Torrie Soon! Hopefully it works with the X4 and the 2011 Non-PP

Of course he can.....its an AJP turbo exclusive lol...have hime set pedal position to command kickdown is sst mode to 1024

[hawkeye93]

Had my appointment on Thursday.  Shop is going to email me the graphs, but the final result was around 385 HP/367 TQ, if I remember correctly. 

My experience didn't exactly go according to plan.  I went to the shop with my Unleashed tune, and the first pull was a mess.  We tried to do it in 4th gear in sand mode, bad idea.  Only got something like 282 HP.  And the shop hooked up the boost sensor to the wrong hose, so it didn't record any boost data, and it threw 2 DTCs, P007C & P0097.  Plus I wasn't ready with the datalogging.  Thinking that was my first of my 2 pulls, I switched to my Livernois tune.  They fixed the boost line, and my second pull was done in normal mode & 3rd gear.  Got something like 320 HP, very disappointing, even less than I expected from the "heartbreaker."  But I did get a datalog.  Then he said I would get 1 more pull, so I switched back to Unleashed, and we did it one more time, and got the 385/367.  I also got a datalog from that.  Again, normal mode & 3rd gear.  Truck auto-shifted around 6K both times.

So all in all, not too bad, even though we took the long route to get there.  I don't really trust the results from my second pull with the Livernois tune.  My butt dyno indicates that Livernois & Unleashed are very close, and Livernois might actually be stronger at this point.  I plan to go back after I get my meth system installed, and I will be doing more revisions with Unleashed.

I'll post the graphs in the Dyno Results forum after I get them.

[AJP turbo]

Awsome job getting logs hawkeye....there are some interesting things on both logs

But you said you think the livernois tune is stronger even though the unleashed had the highest numbers

Both logs showed some similar things and some not so similar things...there are pros and cons to both

I will post later, im on daddy duty at the most

I think the community needs another alternative lol....and fyi im as critical of my tunes and logs as i am of other tunes also...i was always looking for results and worked tirelessly until i got them....and the fact that i owned the car i was tuning was invaluable

[AJP turbo]

 Why was the ambient temp so hot?..In the Unleashed tune you are hitting a limiter and it's keeping the throttle closed at lower RPM's.....You are commanding much more boost in Torrie's tune but spark is really low...I'm not sure why..The temps were pretty warm but not so warm to give you the low spark that you were getting I would think

Knock sensor was pretty happy so I don't know why the spark was so low

You didn't get fuel enrichment until 3500 and it goes from commanding 1.0 lambda to .77 that is typically what the stock tune does so I'm not sure why Torrie didn't do what he normally does for fuel tuning...Big changes like that also play hell on the pressure in the rail.

You need to log IAT2 that is temps in the manifold....Everything else is basically irrelevant. Unless you are troubles shooting the intercooler or something. If your IAT2 was over 160F that could explain the low spark but it still shouldn't be that retarded. For that boost and being that the knock sensor was happy even if IAT 2 was 160 I would expect to see at least 8 degrees spark..You are nowhere near that and close to 0!

And you need to log torque source....It could've told you why the throttle was closing.

Torrie has you commanding variable boost levels...I'm not sure why...I like to set my boost flat throughout my RPM range.. Check your desired TIP during WOT

Scratch what I said about temps...Just saw something else...You maxed out the CAC temp sensor....125C...That is really hot! so hot that it's all the sensor can see....Look how it flatlines at the end of the pull...I'm not sure where that sensor is but I think it's the TIP sensor....You really needed to see that IAT2...It was likely hotter than that but it may only have the same temp scaling but damn!...That would justify that much spark retard possibley.

[AJP turbo]

On the Livernois tune, the throttle is closing in the early part of the pull. Usually a torque limiter that needs adjusted...Strange because boost is fairly low. You never actually hit boost or command a boost level that require a 3 bar tune....189 KPA is far enough away from the stock MAP sensor's  limit of 206KPA.....I wouldn't even run a 3 bar sensor with your boost levels.

Low boost and low spark is pretty much the reason for low power....Even with the heat you were in I would see around 20 degrees at that load. Your knock sensor was adding a good amount of spark. So the tune is safe to say the least. I would want a little more if I was in your shoes.

Boost is nice and even though. But that's to be expected at low boost levels...It's easy to control..

Just like before, you should log torque source and IAT2 and you can change the units in your config file to standard.

On your own you should do a log with your Livernois tune through the gears like 1-4th gear then you can see what the throttle and boost spikes are doing on the upshifts



You are commanding fuel enrichment a little sooner on the LMS tune...But they are commanding an even richer mix than my stock SHO tune......It makes sense that they are saying the fuel system is maxxed out when I think there is more headroom....When you command super rich fuel mixtures it taxes the fuel system heavily.....If you reduce the fuel demand in terms of commanded Lambda then the pressure in the rail wouldn't suffer so much, effectively extending the limits of the fuel system.

And there is plenty of evidence in the form of Ford literature that leaner mixes at higher pressures is better at knock resistance than rich mixes at lower pressures.

[hawkeye93]

Wow, that is some killer analysis, AJP, thanks! I don't know why the ambient was so high.  Outdoor temp was mid-80's & high humidity.  When you say "low spark," do you mean not enough advance?  I expect to add timing when I tune for my meth system.

As for the PIDs, I'm just using the config file I got from Torrie.  I can add the PIDs you suggest.  But the data certainly doesn't mean as much to me as it does to you.

[AJP turbo]

Low spark advance...like 5 degrees instead of 15 degrees

[Scott4957]

If its anything like my tuning experience with Torrie he adds spark later in the revisions. Keep in mind the OP is only on Rev2 I believe. It seems that he starts adjusting the spark tables last, which is where I feel the largest gain's in the seat of the pants, that is where the torque really comes on.