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SHO - 93 octane and knock sensor

Started by metroplex, March 19, 2016, 12:31:50 PM

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metroplex

I ran several datalogs doing WOT 1-2 and 2-3 shifts with 87 octane (I run 87 octane almost all the time with the SHO) and see that it pulls a max of about 7 degrees of timing at certain cells, but that happens to be about the max amount of timing the computer is supposed to pull based on detected knock. I ran the tank almost empty, and filled it with fresh 93 octane (based on the 19 gal capacity, I calculate about 80% of the fuel in the tank is 93 oct), and ran the same test scenario but at a colder ambient temperature (I blame Michigan's crazy weather).

Even with the stock tune, it's pulling on average 2-3* timing at the high RPM/high load areas, and a peak of 4*-5*. Should I reduce these values in their respective cells or just let the knock sensor do its thing?

I also added a snapshot of the WOT run from this morning with 93 octane fuel. The trans temp is scaled wrong, and HPTuners is going to fix it in the next release. It's displaying numbers in *Celsius, but with the units in *Fahrenheit. I also know my throttle pedal was jammed to the floor for the entire run, and can see that the computer limited the throttle angle opening. It looks like the Combustion Stability Limit table might be the cause for the torque limiting, but I'd have to experiment in the future. And the boost value in the graph below accounts for the atmospheric barometric pressure so it's not an absolute number. I saw a peak of 11.4 psi, but it holds steady at around 10 psi (at around 4500 RPM / 140-150% load based on the boost table I have up there).

The fuel trims are still jacked up though, I'm seeing about +13% to +15%. Normally with a MAF system, I'd try to fix it right away and get it within 5% but I haven't the slightest clue where to begin on this speed density system.

So any ideas on the timing being pulled even with 93 octane fuel? Do I want to use one of those OTC octane boosters at the track? Or should I change the spark tables and pull a few degrees in those cells? I recall a long time ago that you don't want to depend on the knock sensors because it can pull too much spark and do it at the wrong rate. I have a mod plan already in place, but I have to figure out what to do with the car in the next 6 months or so (buy out the lease or get a 2017 SHO if they will be made)
Previously: 2014 SHO
12.4 @ 110.9 mph

Current: 2017 Fusion Sport

AJP turbo

The stock tune will use throttle to control boost and keep it smooth...although for max power thats not ideal and makes the turbos work harder because they are fighting the throttle blade

You need to log torque source so you can get an idea of why the throttle is closing...there a tons of reasons...not just the combustion stability limit table...it can be a 100 or so things

I dont like looking at tables of cells...i like to look at knock retard on a graph..sorry your logger is foreign to me

I wouldnt worry about the fuel trims or spark on the stock tune...it may be pulling some but adding at other times...there will always be peaks when u look at actual cells...the averages look fine to me...you will never see all 0's...the tune wants to be on the edge of incipient knock otherwise you may be leaving power on the table....just tune on it already and quit playing with the stock tune!
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

metroplex

Quote from: AJP turbo on March 19, 2016, 01:00:50 PM
You need to log torque source so you can get an idea of why the throttle is closing...there a tons of reasons...not just the combustion stability limit table...it can be a 100 or so things

It's logged, you can see in the last screen shot. Trans Trunc is the one I see the most along with Driver Demand. The Driver Demand Limit Source is mainly Combustion Stability Limit. Of course, during the shifting transitions the Torque Source is Trans Shift, and the Driver Demand Limit Source is Max Trans Shift Rate. I think I'm beginning to understand how those tables work.

Quote
I dont like looking at tables of cells...i like to look at knock retard on a graph..sorry your logger is foreign to me

I can do tables and graphs in VCM scanner, for me the tables are easier because it translates to the tables when tuning so you know exactly what cells to change. I added the graph of Knock Retard to see what you're talking about, and it starts pulling 3*, then 4*, and then 5* in 3 distinct ramps. I guess it is useful to see as a reference.

I'd use SCT LiveLink to make it easier for you, but SCT just runs so slowly even on a relatively new computer.
Previously: 2014 SHO
12.4 @ 110.9 mph

Current: 2017 Fusion Sport

AJP turbo

I dont notice live link to be slow

Im not sure what you mean about driver demand limit.....if you are seeing driver demand there should be no limiter in place at that moment.....and trans truncation shouldnt be related to comb. Stability limit

Trans truncation usually means that you have a max value that once its exceeded it just treats anything over that value as that value...so if it clips at 500 Newton meters and you are at 600 it will just use 500
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

AJP turbo

You want driver demand for the entire wot...but it won't happen on the stock tune
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

metroplex

When the Torque Source reads Driver Demand, the Driver Demand Limit Source seems to be Combustion Stability Limit most of the time during WOT runs. During normal driving, the Limit Source reads No Limit Active.

Opening SCT Advantage and LiveLink is like watching paint dry or grass grow compared to HPTuners. I normally run HPTuners on my single core 1.6 GHz Atom powered netbook from early 2010, which is also running Windows 10.
Previously: 2014 SHO
12.4 @ 110.9 mph

Current: 2017 Fusion Sport

AJP turbo

Im not sure what hp is showing you...when you are in driver demand mode(tq source 0) that is not a limiter...it means the car is targeting the torque level you are requesting in the driver demand tables


And sct is slow to open but once its open i dont see a problem with speed...i figure thats due to the size of the programs but im no computer guy
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

metroplex

I was talking about 2 different PIDs. One is Torque Source (the one you constantly mention), the other is Driver Demand Limit Source.
During the times when torque is being limited during a WOT run, the Driver Demand Limit Source seems to be Combustion Stability Limit. During normal driving, the Limit Source reads No Limit Active.

SCT Advantage is both slow to load and slow to use, like painfully slow, even on a relatively quick dual-core laptop. Maybe I am impatient, but HPTuners' VCM Editor and Scanner flies on my netbook, which basically has the equivalent hardware of a laptop from 2001.
Previously: 2014 SHO
12.4 @ 110.9 mph

Current: 2017 Fusion Sport

AJP turbo

Once open , everything seems to happen instantaneously in livelink and advantage for me...lucky i guess

You are a strange cat.....you claim to be learning....but that wont happen til you start logging a tuned sho...it will piss you off
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

CroR1

Just curious what are you guys seeing on stock tune with 93 for advanced timing?

metroplex

About 19*-20*, WOT, 11+ psi boost, at near the 6100 RPM revlimiter/shift limiter.
Previously: 2014 SHO
12.4 @ 110.9 mph

Current: 2017 Fusion Sport

CroR1

What about at idle? I usually see around 7-9 at idle, and I see some spikes on mine go to 48 and down, while driving normally.

AJP turbo

Quote from: CroR1 on May 26, 2016, 05:37:11 PM
Just curious what are you guys seeing on stock tune with 93 for advanced timing?


That's really a question that will have an answer that won't help you much.....What are you looking for specifically?
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress