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Running regular gas

Started by A 01 Badger, November 25, 2015, 06:17:21 PM

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A 01 Badger

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 28, 2015, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: donky4444 on November 28, 2015, 08:09:00 PM
I filled up Wednesday and regular as $1.57 but 93 was $2.27. I was floored to see it was $0.70 more for premium. I'm used to 0.30 more so was taken back. It was a Shell station so I thought it was just them for their new V plus gas.
On a positive note, I never thought id see people crying about the cost of 2.30 cent premium fuel again in my lifetime....
I can agree with you there, even at the beginning of this year I was totally stoked when it got below 3. I was in Chicago for most of the Millennium including the summer I was paying $5 a gallon while running my Pontiac GTP.
Amazing how quickly we can adjust to the new "norm".

Sold - 2013 SHO w/ PP LMS 93 Tune, 3 Bar, NGK Iridium Plugs, MDesign CAI,  30% tint

2018 XSport - AJP Turbo tune, Steeda Rear Sway Bar and Rear Trailing Arms

2011 Audi S4 mt6 - EPL Stage 2 tune, Injen intake, EPL supercharger pulley, RDX Billet trans mount, ECS sub frame inserts, JXB Performance Short Throw shift kit.

AJP turbo

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 29, 2015, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on November 29, 2015, 10:07:58 AM
Definitely, if it works for you, stick with it :)  Have you tried running just the 93 (after the 93 + corn) to see how much difference it makes?  The fuel system in the Edge is "primitive" enough that I can't really experiment with upping ethanol %ages.
It makes a huge difference with KR and knock. My corn tune is much hotter and you saw that one log.....even near stoich at wot, no knock.

You were running near stoic at wot?....what you talking bout willis?
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: ajpturbo on November 29, 2015, 07:51:03 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 29, 2015, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on November 29, 2015, 10:07:58 AM
Definitely, if it works for you, stick with it :)  Have you tried running just the 93 (after the 93 + corn) to see how much difference it makes?  The fuel system in the Edge is "primitive" enough that I can't really experiment with upping ethanol %ages.
It makes a huge difference with KR and knock. My corn tune is much hotter and you saw that one log.....even near stoich at wot, no knock.

You were running near stoic at wot?....what you talking bout willis?
You have mail

A 01 Badger

Maybe this should be it's own post but it started here so I will put it here but it's basically a LMS 87 tune review.

For those who remember or care, I went back to stock tune at the end of last year due to the drastic price drop in 87 octane and the fact that 93 didn't follow as closely.  (now that 87 is under $1.40 and 93 close to $2  is another story) 

Most if not all of us drove the car stock at some point.  Obviously, I lost a lot of the fun factor from driving on my 93 tune, but since it was winter, I didn't mind so much as conditions don't really allow for a lot of fun anyway.  Anyway, I never ran the car on 87 even pre tune, so I have no comparison, but I was pleasantly surprised that most of the power stayed, and my mileage was still in the 24 mpg area. (I do a lot of Hwy miles)  Tony at LMS saw my post and offered to send me an 87 tune which would allow me to put my 3bar back on the car and adjust some of the shifting characteristics on the car.  I gladly accepted and reinstalled the 3 bar and updated the tune about 2 weeks ago.

Note:  I realize there are a lot of variables here, including outdoor temps, winter gas chemistry, winter tires vs. eagles, butt dyno only, etc.  but I wasn't able to locate anyone else on here running an 87 octane tune so I thought I would put my thoughts out there.

On the LMS 87 tune I have noticed 3 major things:

1. The car seems to run alot quieter, over 93 tune or stock.  I can not figure out why that is, but it's almost silent when not under load, like Prius silent.

2. It seems to run and shift smoother than both stock or 93 tune.  I can't say why, obvious the lower noise is part of this feeling, but it almost feels like I am coasting all the time (best way I can describe it).  I assume the shift points are similar to the 93 tune, but due to less power, it just shifts easier???

3.  Mileage is WAY worse.- than stock or 93 tune. 
     3a. With the 93 tune and 93 gas, I was getting 23 to 24 mpg, when driving nice.
     3b. With the stock tune and 87 gas, I was still getting around 24.
     3c. With the stock tune and 93 gas, I was getting 24+ (I ran this way when I first got the car Dec 2014-June 2015)
     3d. With the current set up, 87 tune with 87 gas, I can not seem to get it above 20mpg, avg for the last 3 tanks was 18.7 mpg.

*All MPG measurements are based on the Ford computer calculations, I've done none on my own (Pump / ODO between fillups)  But I assume it's pretty accurate.

My guess is that it's the more aggressive shift points that accounts for the majority of the loss of mileage but I can't think of what else would contribute to it.  I haven't done the math yet, but I have a feeling that the increased mileage will justify me going back to the 93 tune.  I may switch back when this current tank empty's to see if my mileage holds up like I remember it. 

Overall:  I appreciate LMS taking the time to make the 87 tune for me.  It's nice to have in the programmer for situations where low quality gas might be the only thing available.  The biggest benefit I believe is the ability to drop down to 87 without having to pop the hood and swap our the 3 bar and 2 bar.  However, my purpose was to try to take advantage of the large spread between 87 and 93 octane, and I believe the decrease in mileage might make the 87 gas (1.34 today) less of a value than the 93 (1.95 today).  Especially when you factor in the loss of power and more frequent stops at the pump.  (again, I haven't actually done the math).

Anyone else's thoughts are appreciated.




Sold - 2013 SHO w/ PP LMS 93 Tune, 3 Bar, NGK Iridium Plugs, MDesign CAI,  30% tint

2018 XSport - AJP Turbo tune, Steeda Rear Sway Bar and Rear Trailing Arms

2011 Audi S4 mt6 - EPL Stage 2 tune, Injen intake, EPL supercharger pulley, RDX Billet trans mount, ECS sub frame inserts, JXB Performance Short Throw shift kit.

Dxlnt1

Quote from: A 01 Badger on February 12, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
Maybe this should be it's own post but it started here so I will put it here but it's basically a LMS 87 tune review.

For those who remember or care, I went back to stock tune at the end of last year due to the drastic price drop in 87 octane and the fact that 93 didn't follow as closely.  (now that 87 is under $1.40 and 93 close to $2  is another story) 

Most if not all of us drove the car stock at some point.  Obviously, I lost a lot of the fun factor from driving on my 93 tune, but since it was winter, I didn't mind so much as conditions don't really allow for a lot of fun anyway.  Anyway, I never ran the car on 87 even pre tune, so I have no comparison, but I was pleasantly surprised that most of the power stayed, and my mileage was still in the 24 mpg area. (I do a lot of Hwy miles)  Tony at LMS saw my post and offered to send me an 87 tune which would allow me to put my 3bar back on the car and adjust some of the shifting characteristics on the car.  I gladly accepted and reinstalled the 3 bar and updated the tune about 2 weeks ago.

Note:  I realize there are a lot of variables here, including outdoor temps, winter gas chemistry, winter tires vs. eagles, butt dyno only, etc.  but I wasn't able to locate anyone else on here running an 87 octane tune so I thought I would put my thoughts out there.

On the LMS 87 tune I have noticed 3 major things:

1. The car seems to run alot quieter, over 93 tune or stock.  I can not figure out why that is, but it's almost silent when not under load, like Prius silent.

2. It seems to run and shift smoother than both stock or 93 tune.  I can't say why, obvious the lower noise is part of this feeling, but it almost feels like I am coasting all the time (best way I can describe it).  I assume the shift points are similar to the 93 tune, but due to less power, it just shifts easier???

3.  Mileage is WAY worse.- than stock or 93 tune. 
     3a. With the 93 tune and 93 gas, I was getting 23 to 24 mpg, when driving nice.
     3b. With the stock tune and 87 gas, I was still getting around 24.
     3c. With the stock tune and 93 gas, I was getting 24+ (I ran this way when I first got the car Dec 2014-June 2015)
     3d. With the current set up, 87 tune with 87 gas, I can not seem to get it above 20mpg, avg for the last 3 tanks was 18.7 mpg.

*All MPG measurements are based on the Ford computer calculations, I've done none on my own (Pump / ODO between fillups)  But I assume it's pretty accurate.

My guess is that it's the more aggressive shift points that accounts for the majority of the loss of mileage but I can't think of what else would contribute to it.  I haven't done the math yet, but I have a feeling that the increased mileage will justify me going back to the 93 tune.  I may switch back when this current tank empty's to see if my mileage holds up like I remember it. 

Overall:  I appreciate LMS taking the time to make the 87 tune for me.  It's nice to have in the programmer for situations where low quality gas might be the only thing available.  The biggest benefit I believe is the ability to drop down to 87 without having to pop the hood and swap our the 3 bar and 2 bar.  However, my purpose was to try to take advantage of the large spread between 87 and 93 octane, and I believe the decrease in mileage might make the 87 gas (1.34 today) less of a value than the 93 (1.95 today).  Especially when you factor in the loss of power and more frequent stops at the pump.  (again, I haven't actually done the math).

Anyone else's thoughts are appreciated.

Before you switch back, I suggest you try running the ACES IV fuel catalyst. Here in California 93 octane is not available. But the ACES allows me to run the 93 tune with no problem. Yes you will be some what of a guinea pig but given you had your tune modified this is golden opportunity to really see what the ACES can do. From economy standpoint my '04 Yukon normally gets 10 mpg. But running the ACES with the almost cheapest gas I can find I get 12-13 mpg. The SHO, my mileage never been great but I am generally just under 20 mpg. My numbers are all real world numbers. Not computer calculations so I tend to believe that as being more accurate.

The discussion for the ACES IV is here.

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5087.0.html
2011 SHO, 3 Bar, AJP Turbo-Tune, ACES IV, Boostane 170 T-stat, PPE Catted DP's, Alpine Sound system, Touch screen HVAC controls, full window tint

CroR1

Another thing to consider is that the 87 gas is a lower quality and simply is giving lower mpg rating.

AJP turbo

Quote from: CroR1 on February 13, 2016, 12:12:08 AM
Another thing to consider is that the 87 gas is a lower quality and simply is giving lower mpg rating.

A fuel's octane rating is simply its ability to withstand preignition...not the burn temp or cleanliness or anything else like some people often think
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SHOdded

Quote from: A 01 Badger on February 12, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
3.  Mileage is WAY worse.- than stock or 93 tune. 
     3a. With the 93 tune and 93 gas, I was getting 23 to 24 mpg, when driving nice.
     3b. With the stock tune and 87 gas, I was still getting around 24.
     3c. With the stock tune and 93 gas, I was getting 24+ (I ran this way when I first got the car Dec 2014-June 2015)
     3d. With the current set up, 87 tune with 87 gas, I can not seem to get it above 20mpg, avg for the last 3 tanks was 18.7 mpg.

*All MPG measurements are based on the Ford computer calculations, I've done none on my own (Pump / ODO between fillups)  But I assume it's pretty accurate.
All these measurements done same season of the year, same gas station (or same brand gas station)?  There's the 10% hit from winter fuel, and also brand to brand variability in performance of the fuel (not huge when btwn Top Tier tho).
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

FoMoCoSHO

87 has more energy than 93 because it has more fuel and less additives that rob energy in exchange for higher octane.

That being said, 93 allows for more advanced timing advance across the board which translates to more efficiency and power. What that means is for a given Torque request, you will need more throttle (fuel) with 87 than 93. You can see the difference on the stock tune if you monitor KR (read timing retard) activity as 87 will be wildly higher. Look at the HP ratings as well between the two. 87 has more theoretical energy but in our platform you can see it makes more power with 93. (355 vs 365)




ZSHO

I would certainly agree using a busy top tier station is important,to the OP you said 1.40 for 87 octane is that a moms and pops station cause here in N.J the cheapest top tier stations such as Shell,Exxon,BP, is 1.62 for 87 octane.  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

ZSHO

#40
I found this on the owners manual.  Z         • 3.5L V6 SHO/2.0L EcoBoost® engines
"Regular" unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87 is
recommended. Some stations offer fuels posted as "Regular" with an
octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with
octane levels below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide
improved performance and is recommended for severe duty usage such
as trailer tow.
Do not be concerned if your engine sometimes knocks lightly. However, if
it knocks heavily while you are using fuel with the recommended octane
rating, see your authorized dealer to prevent any engine damage.  Avoid running out of fuel because this situation may have an adverse
effect on powertrain components.  For consistent results when filling the fuel tank:
• Turn the ignition off before fueling; an inaccurate reading results if the
engine is left running.
• Use the same fill rate (low–medium–high) each time the tank is filled.
• Allow no more than two automatic click–offs when filling.
Results are most accurate when the filling method is consistent.  Do not measure fuel economy during the first 1000 miles
(1600 kilometers) of driving (this is your engine's break-in period); a
more accurate measurement is obtained after 2000 miles–3000 miles
(3200 kilometers–4800 kilometers). Also, fuel expense, frequency of
fill-ups or fuel gauge readings are not accurate ways to measure fuel
economy.
1. Fill the fuel tank completely and record the initial odometer reading.
2. Each time you fill the tank, record the amount of fuel added.
3. After at least three to five tank fill-ups, fill the fuel tank and record
the current odometer reading.
4. Subtract your initial odometer reading from the current odometer
reading.
5. Calculate fuel economy as follows:
Standard: Divide miles traveled by gallons used.
Metric: Multiply liters used by 100, then divide by kilometers traveled.  Keep a record for at least one month and record the type of driving
(city or highway). This provides an accurate estimate of the vehicle's fuel
economy under current driving conditions. Additionally, keeping records
during summer and winter show how temperature impacts fuel economy.
In general, lower temperatures mean lower fuel economy.


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

RAYJAY

Quote from: CroR1 on February 13, 2016, 12:12:08 AM
Another thing to consider is that the 87 gas is a lower quality and simply is giving lower mpg rating.


could be winter blend vs summer blend on the 87

fyi the blizzacks on mine drop me about 2 gallon per mile, 
2013 GREEN GEM METALLIC 402A PP PACKAGE

AJP turbo

Quote from: RAYJAY on February 13, 2016, 04:03:23 PM
Quote from: CroR1 on February 13, 2016, 12:12:08 AM
Another thing to consider is that the 87 gas is a lower quality and simply is giving lower mpg rating.


could be winter blend vs summer blend on the 87

fyi the blizzacks on mine drop me about 2 gallon per mile,

You realize how big of a percentage loss that is?...its massive...i would never believe you...you need to do a scientific test...looking at the computer or doing the calc yourself over random drives arent going to work
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: RAYJAY on February 13, 2016, 04:03:23 PM
Quote from: CroR1 on February 13, 2016, 12:12:08 AM
Another thing to consider is that the 87 gas is a lower quality and simply is giving lower mpg rating.


could be winter blend vs summer blend on the 87

fyi the blizzacks on mine drop me about 2 gallon per mile,

I assume you meant miles per gallon...

My mileage hasn't dropped at all with the Blizzaks. It did stop moving up though.

A 01 Badger

Quote from: ZSHO on February 13, 2016, 07:27:48 AM
I would certainly agree using a busy top tier station is important,to the OP you said 1.40 for 87 octane is that a moms and pops station cause here in N.J the cheapest top tier stations such as Shell,Exxon,BP, is 1.62 for 87 octane.  Z

I generally use the same two station near my house.  Both claim to be top tier and both are always busy.  When not near the house I always look for Mobil (no scientific reason, just always did)

Only difference in fuel should be summer vs winter blend, but that's a Hugh drop in mileage imo for just that. 

Side Note, the day I posted my review must have been the all time low for the decade, we are back to 1.60 avg around here for 87.
Sold - 2013 SHO w/ PP LMS 93 Tune, 3 Bar, NGK Iridium Plugs, MDesign CAI,  30% tint

2018 XSport - AJP Turbo tune, Steeda Rear Sway Bar and Rear Trailing Arms

2011 Audi S4 mt6 - EPL Stage 2 tune, Injen intake, EPL supercharger pulley, RDX Billet trans mount, ECS sub frame inserts, JXB Performance Short Throw shift kit.