Livernois Tune Madness on "Winter Blend"

Livernois Motorsports · February 04, 2016, 10:42:48 AM

Quote from: SHOdded on February 04, 2016, 10:21:17 AM
Thanks, Rich, appreciate the kind words Name calling, especially against fellow forum members, isn't allowed by ANYONE. When they do, they are reprimanded with what tools we have at our disposal.

We let this thread continue because we honestly thought a tete-a-tete would help enlighten interested members regarding the inner workings & controls of the EB platform. AFAIK, Livernois is saying what they can without divulging trade secrets, but if you don't ask, you won't know. Simple as that. As repeatedly stated by us before, if a vendor gets to that point, let them say so, and that'd be fine. We all understand the need for trade secrets. But at the same time, we do not support squashing of efforts to reverse engineer products. Is it OK that we try to do things to Ford products, but not ok if we try to do the very same things with aftermarket products? If anything, it speaks to Livernois' capabilities that people want to figure out what/why they are doing ...

You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.

SHOdded · February 04, 2016, 10:48:12 AM

There will never be such a thing as even and balanced, Rich, everyone's point of view is different. That's the way the world works, for better or worse. Do things one way, a particular group will salute you, do it another way, the same people will spit on you.

The fact remains, we are using a medium of communication that is quite anonymous by nature. If you choose to meet outside the classroom, get to know each other, more power to you, and very commendable. After all, the spirit of camaraderie is quite welcome. But most of us do not have that luxury. Maybe the same person who you consider your opponent in a forum would be a good friend in real life. But that is your choice to make. We can't make it for you. I personally give people a LOT of leeway, but that doesn't mean I don't have opinions about what you guys say & do, just like everyone else.

If you want to take me to school, shame me, if that makes you feel better, go right ahead. I've had to listen to s*** all my life because I don't care to take sides, but I will speak up when it's time. You will be the n+1 in that crowd. But I refuse to take it out on other people, especially in public.

14SHOCAR, AJ, Livernois (I don't know who's repping because there's no signature on the posts), do you want me to lock the thread as ZSHO has suggested, or do you all want to voluntarily withdraw from public discussion on this thread? Use the phone, PM, whatever. Please let me know. Thank you.

SHOdded · February 04, 2016, 10:52:58 AM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on February 04, 2016, 10:42:48 AM
You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.

I understand you are doing what you can, saying what you can. And certainly, there will be times when facts will still not persuade people to come around. I think your offer to AJ to come out and have a discussion with you is quite fair, if not more so. As long as you take feedback, and turn that into a better product, that is all anyone can ask for of any company, and I appreciate that. Everybody wants things now, answers now, and sometimes it's just not possible or practical ...

Livernois Motorsports · February 04, 2016, 10:57:40 AM

To put the whole "popping" discussion to rest:

The following was on October 6th, 2015.

Quote from: 14SHOCAR on October 06, 2015, 10:34:58 AM...I think it was my car adjusting to the new gas. The car was 100% 93 octane when I went back to the E85 Mixture. I've been spacing out the e85 mixtures every couple of tanks so I can get a "true mix". I still had gas in the tank so it was 1.5 (E85) to 15.5 (93). It was only during WOT between 2nd and 3rd that it was starting to lose power, which I assume the "popping" is the car opening the waste gates (not misfires, though it could be). It was doing a similar thing when I had the cat-less downpipes on.

The car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture. I am almost always at WOT in my car -- it's how I drive. The car was stable until I made the new mix. The 1.0(e85) to 15.5 (e85) mixture was stable and didn't have any popping.. it was only after I added that additional half gallon that the car started to pop.

My car has now adjusted to the new mix and I don't get popping anymore with the new mixture.

It raises the question -- if you make the change, do you need to keep the mix for the LOR and curves to remain consistent?

Stated above clearly,"...the car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture...". This proves that the issues did not start until after the addition of E85. There are years of experience behind our recommendations. These vehicles are not made for alternative fuels. If we were talking about actual race applications then things like E85, auxiliary fueling systems and nitrous would be right at home. These types of mods are right at home in an application that will see limited street time, or not need to have the same level of composure or manners that we have come to expect from a modern luxury family sport sedan.

SHOdded · February 04, 2016, 11:17:32 AM

Good find.

FoMoCoSHO · February 04, 2016, 11:25:39 AM

Rich, the fact that we don't come to Livernois rescue whenever disagreement arises could also say the opposite, that we're not biased towards any vendor. Since this is a forum there's always going to be differences of opinion. Moderating is a slippery slope. It's a lose-lose for us because no matter which direction we go, someones gonna be pissed off. Everybody has their favorites and for some reason always think that makes them beyond reproach. That's not the way the real world works and quite honestly it just makes you look biased. I get it, they've gifted you with a quick car and you support them. I applaud your loyalty, but you do not make up the entire membership of EBPF.

It Looks to me that LME is more than capable of defending themselves. We moderate lightly here which is probably a good thing or you'd be banned with your personal assault on the forum and admin. Right or wrong, AJP has added data to the discussion which is more than I can say for your contributions in this thread so far. Since I don't tune cars I'll leave the discussion to the guys that do and so far on this thread that consists of AJP and whoever we are speaking with from LME.

As far as the bias issue regarding me personally? Most of my opinions went out the window the second I took this "job". I find myself not posting often because it's hard to have an opinion and be neutral at the same time. So now I just post data I find while researching the interwebz and my personal experiences I've had with the two SHO's I've owned. If LME thinks that I conduct myself with bias, they are welcome to PM me and I will relinquish my duties and go back to being a member.

SHOnUup · February 04, 2016, 11:38:04 AM

I never asked for a "rescue"...

But, we'll fall back to the this is out of context so it's ok for someone to run around this site calling people stupid, their ideas dumb, and that their car looks stupid...yet, I see where some moderation could take place to keep it from getting petty....and I'm the one who needs moderation?

Data = low fuel....been stated how many times?

I don't even own a 13+....but I have a few guys testing the V9 91...V9 93...V8 93...V8 91...in different temps with Forscan watching.

It's the fuel & temps combined...just like Torrie having guys running less of a tune file when the temps dip... (like I said before)...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

bamsho · February 04, 2016, 11:48:07 AM

I probably know Rich better than most here. He runs couple EB Facebooks pages and would of never let this thread get this far. Period. As for him defending LME, like no one else would defend there tuner, I hope they would. Do I think Rich has a point, yes I do and do I think is call out was warranted, yes I do. Manu, you know Rich too, you should of cut him some slack. Yes, I will always have Rich's back. Back to the thread, it has always been a fueling issues for day one, even the FORD fuel engineers will tell you that.

SHOdded · February 04, 2016, 11:49:35 AM

It takes a while for some people to change the way they present themselves in public. And if you have been watching, you know the rhetoric you refer to has been toned down over time, and will improve further, I am sure. This is not a magical change, it took work on all our parts to make it happen.

I made my comments to you because you could have PM'd me first with your concerns, and I could have taken action. But you chose not to. I thought we had some degree of trust, but maybe that was my error, because this is an open forum.

You could have just stated the facts you did in the last post, in support of Livernois, without all the recrimination. But you chose not to. You yourself are an intrepid data-gatherer, so there is weight to what you say.

So yeah, I responded, because what you said really hurt.

makoskey · February 04, 2016, 11:52:06 AM

i have a 2013 non PP am running a 3bar, intake, 91 V8 tune, downpipes, and magnaflow exhaust. I do have the LME tune and do not have any of the issues that are being discussed in this thread.

I didn't see where anyone else that had a similar tune and year of car had the same issue. But from all the reading i have been doing on this out of control subject seems to be car related and not tune related.

Not trying to be a dick but its just an observation.

Livernois Motorsports · February 04, 2016, 11:56:13 AM

Thank you for your contribution Mako!

14SHOCAR · February 04, 2016, 11:57:38 AM

I have documented issues since 5/13/2015... this e85 thread you are referring is from October. In fact I'll take a screen shot of the email exchange I had with Livernois to solidify that this is the kind of customer service I get from them.... COMPLETE DENIAL.

Post from OCTOBER that Livernois is referring to:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5214.msg85347.html#msg85347

FoMoCoSHO · February 04, 2016, 11:59:28 AM

Quote from: makoskey on February 04, 2016, 11:52:06 AM
i have a 2013 non PP am running a 3bar, intake, 91 V8 tune, downpipes, and magnaflow exhaust. I do have the LME tune and do not have any of the issues that are being discussed in this thread.

I didn't see where anyone else that had a similar tune and year of car had the same issue. But from all the reading i have been doing on this out of control subject seems to be car related and not tune related.

Not trying to be a dick but its just an observation.

Not only that but there seems to be a bit of variation from car to car. The 15 holds rail pressure better than the 13 did. Why? No idea. I can say that I purposely pushed to 13 to the limit (for science, right?) and it gave out at E45ish on a zero degree day. No sputter, nothing prior to tell me I was maybe getting close, it just shut the throttle and said no more please. Took it back to E25 and carried on without issue.

Rich runs E85 on a hot tune without issue.

14 Shocar has E0 and has issues? I don't see why it is unreasonable for him to ask if there is an issue with his tune. Does that mean the tune is the problem? Nope. Does it mean he drew the rail pressure short stick? Quite possibly.

ecoboostsho · February 04, 2016, 12:01:21 PM

I just know I'm going to regret this...

I have done logging with my LMS 93 V8 and V9 on my 2013+. I'm not going to get in the debate about PIDs being a good way to tune the car but they do at least provide some data about what is going on. Using FORSCAN I saw fuel pressures falling below 900 PSI and the car doesn't like it. It did maintain A/F but my suspicion is the car doesn't like the drop in FRP and starts limiting things...now mind you this was a calculated blend of E16-E18. If I get rid of the E85 mix the situation dramatically improves - although I don't know if it goes awayentirely as I haven't tested as I don't like flooring my car when it's -14 outside or ridiculously snowy - all of which has been happening here.

I don't think comparing boost levels and fueling directly is all that helpful because it depends on how much timing you are running as well does it not? - you can run 25 PSI and 10 degrees of timing or 12 PSI and 23 degrees (as a probably not so accurate example) and make the same power because cylinder pressures are similar. You need to look at multiple variables to determine if the car is out of fuel or not...

Certainly something could be going on with the OP's car that is causing this issue to manifest itself (bad HPFP, Fuel control module, E85 mixing) when tuned and not stock. I would just get my money back and move on but I suspect you will find yourself in the same situation with another tuner - or you will be tuning around the issue.

SHOdded · February 04, 2016, 12:02:12 PM

As I requested before, if there is anything be gained from further public discussion, we will let this thread stay. Otherwise, it will be locked. Any further threads opened by the OP with regards to this topic will be subject to locking as well at our discretion.

14SHOCAR, are you willing to continue this with LME offline? Please let me know within the hour.