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Quick E85 Summery?

Started by Scott4957, November 04, 2015, 09:16:03 PM

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Scott4957

First post other than my intro, lurked and searched for a while now. I'm coming from the Mazda DISI in my Speed3. I've seen much of the research done by the Mazda guys posted in the forum, the Mazda community really has their mod path down to a science mainly because the engine has been in production for so long. I am trying to get a quick feel for the 3.5 Ecoboost so I know what direction to head.

Quick rundown of where the DISI 2.0 is. We essentially do not have fueling issues on the stock turbo. You are able to max out the turbo with nothing more than CAI, HPFP internals, remove the secondary cat and an E85 tune. We can't run over 50/50 mix E85/87 without risk of what we call black sticky death, though there are some work arounds. No need on the stock turbo as 50/50 is more than enough to tap it out. After a larger turbo you will run out of fuel "50/50" around 400whp, then we use aux systems much like what is talked about for the ecoboost.

From what I gather the Ecoboost falls short on fuel pressure quickly when running E85 and it seems most opt for meth injection, though I hear the 2013+ is better. From what I understand its actually the two LPFP's that are the weakness. I was unable to determine if the HPFP falls victim to the same black sticky death that we have on the Mazda when running more than a 50/50 mix. I do see some people running 15-20% E85 mixes, but not a lot of tuning involved, seems the ECU can adjust and people are getting some impressive gains with a few gallons and nothing eles. E85 being prevalent in my area I would prefer to run an E85 mix over meth injection, but if I can't get the same performance without having to upgrade the LPFP I think it would be easier and more cost effective to use meth. Any input on this would be appreciated.

Last question, and this dead horse has been beaten over and over, Livernois vs someone with SCT. Seems to be absolutely no doubt Livernois is the leader. The only thing that sets me back is that their tuner does not log. Seems fine if you have a predefined upgrade path, but anything outside of the usual upgrade paths will require dyno tuning "meth or E85" and if I understand correctly only Livernois can do this with their tuner. If you go SCT you can log and monitor as well as utilize tuners all over the country, or yourself if you know what you are doing "not me". On the filp side of that I have a Bluetooth OBD2 reader and the torque app, it doesn't have the resolution of the SCT but I could at least sleep sound at night being able to check KR and fuel pressure. Thoughts?

Thanks to anyone that took the time to read all this crap :)

Scott

2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

FoMoCoSHO

#1
I'm currently running an E20 Unleashed tune.

The time on my sig was with no revisions and I'm now revision 2.

Power is still going up and logs via the X4 still show 2-2500 psi for the entire pull and no knock.






















FoMoCoSHO

#2
I've ran various blends on two different SHO's and come to the conclusion that less may be more, at least in our application, for various reasons

With DI's enhancement of E85s properties I want just enough to keep the cylinders cool and effective octane high. I had an E30 tune on the old car and I feel the E20 tune has already matched it and there are less random KR events. Like none. In DI applications there has been some research published that shows preignition causing wall wetting occurring as the alcohol percentage goes up. As alcohol goes up, rail pressure typically decreases as well so you're probably getting less atomization which just makes things worse.

SHOdded put up some lubricity data that shows E20 pretty much matches straight gas but that fades as the blend moves up.

The 2015's fuel system has proven to be more resilient than the 2013. Why I'm not entirely sure. There were some programming changes late 2014 having to do with fuel pressure. I'm also using a fuel catalyst called ACES and have had some interesting results. It will be interesting to see how far Torrie can push it safely.

Some +30% injectors were just released and Bosch motorsports has high flow pumps which no one has explored yet. If i can't get the car where I want it then I might investigate that route. 




Scott4957

Interesting, thanks for taking the time to give me the run down. I saw your times on your 13, where you running Meth on that car and E85 on the 15? Just so I don't have to do the math what do you put in gallon for gallon on your E20 mix? Are you using 87 or 91, 93? In the Mazda we were able to bump the octane level enough with E85 that we could run 87, it was nice on the pocketbook, kinda. Mileage suffered with 50/50 so it was likely a wash. Seeing that we had to run 93 on a stock tune it may have saved a few bucks a fill up.

So with Unleashed was he able to give you a base tune to get you started on E85 and then do revisions off the logs? I assume you can't do this with Meth, never used it but seems to me that you need to get that thing on a dyno to be safe. If this is the case I may go the E20 route. What are your supporting mods?

Thanks,
Scott
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

SHOdded

The amazing thing is that FoMoCoSHO has yet to run meth on his vehicles!  The numbers so far are based purely on tuning and refining the E85/gasoline mix ratios. 

Yes, Unleashed can do revisions for you if you have a meth system installed, but you have to be running a particular % of w/m and have to be running a tune that accounts for that %age before you datalog & send for revisions.  You cannot change the %age on the fly, the tune MUST be updated with each change.  No, a dyno is not required to do this, but datalogging means you have to find a safe area to do some pulls.

If you make changes to the fueling, whether it be E85 or methanol, talk to the tuner first and get the appropriate upgraded base tune installed prior to running the vehicle.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Scott4957

Quote from: SHOdded on November 05, 2015, 11:41:08 AM
The amazing thing is that FoMoCoSHO has yet to run meth on his vehicles!  The numbers so far are based purely on tuning and refining the E85/gasoline mix ratios. 

Yes, Unleashed can do revisions for you if you have a meth system installed, but you have to be running a particular % of w/m and have to be running a tune that accounts for that %age before you datalog & send for revisions.  You cannot change the %age on the fly, the tune MUST be updated with each change.  No, a dyno is not required to do this, but datalogging means you have to find a safe area to do some pulls.

If you make changes to the fueling, whether it be E85 or methanol, talk to the tuner first and get the appropriate upgraded base tune installed prior to running the vehicle.

Thank you, all lines up with what I did in the Mazda. Looks like he has not even upgraded the fueling system. Looks like duel in tank LPFP's are needed to really take full advantage of E, but if you can dip into the mid 12's with a few bolton's and an E tune that is awesome. I have been unable to locate info on the upgraded pumps and the process to install so I have no idea if its something I should take on or not. Once I get my part out sold I am going to get started.

Thanks,
Scott
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

SHOdded

It would help to upgrade the fueling system to get into mid-low 11's, but at that point you'd also have to consider some engine improvements to go with, AND use the setup ONLY for track purposes.  But low 12's, time & again with methanol, and still have a reliable DD, not an issue.  Unfortunately we don't have coilovers for the 13+, as that really helps keep the vehicle grounded.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Scott4957

So the coilovers make that big of a difference. I guess springs would help as well but not to the same degree? Looking forward to getting started.
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: Scott4957 on November 05, 2015, 10:58:09 PM
So the coilovers make that big of a difference. I guess springs would help as well but not to the same degree? Looking forward to getting started.
I agree with SHOdded, less nose lift translates into better forward motion. The springs do help but I'd buy coilovers if I could to stop this....

http://detroitharrysphotos.zenfolio.com/p238749082/e5f68d611

Too bad Megan hates us gen 4.2 owners.

bpd1151

#9
Holy hell look at the lift on that front end & the weight transfer/squat to the rear.

Egads.

Not much lift on mine with the Megans.

This run here I had them set to 6 at all four corners.

1 is the stiffest setting. So I can reduce what little was experienced even further in future runs.

Yes, the Megans do make a TREMENDOUS difference.

https://youtu.be/f8D_ZOXUpog

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Scott4957

#10
Quote from: bpd1151 on November 05, 2015, 11:58:14 PM
Holy hell look at the lift on that front end & the weight transfer/squat to the rear.

Egads.

Not much lift on mine with the Megans.

This run here I had them set to 6 at all four corners.

1 is the stiffest setting. So I can reduce what little was experienced even further in future runs.

Yes, the Megans do make a TREMENDOUS difference.

https://youtu.be/f8D_ZOXUpog

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Damn!!! I'll take your word on that one. Would love to know more about your setup if you have a link to a previous post or something.

Oh NM, quickly realized where I saw this car! :)
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned