• Welcome to Ecoboost Performance Forum. Please log in or sign up.
collapse

ACES IV - An effective octane booster and anti-wear additive?

Started by SHOdded, August 05, 2015, 04:58:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

ecoboostsho

I'm 95% confident (hey I could be wrong!) that there isn't an Octane sensor.  Perhaps someone who really knows can chime in.  From everything I've seen LOR is "inferred" based on the engine's ability at different throttle positions to not knock.  If it can advance timing and not see knock at various load levels then it "assumes" that you must be running a higher octane fuel and it will advance the LOR so you get to run more timing.  If it sees too much knock then again the ECU assumes you've put in some craptastic gas and moves the LOR in the appropriate direction.

If that is how it works then ACES would HAVE to prevent knock to enhance LOR since that is the only way it can affect it.  There might be other variables involved with LOR though but again I don't think an actual Octane sensor enters in to the picture.  That said I have no idea what ACES claims to do so I can't comment. 

It would not surprise me if the car paid particular attention to knock and adjusting the LOR value right after you fill up.  That would trigger the algorithm in the ECU since you obviously just put new gas in.

I am basing most of observations off of this article:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/

2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

Dxlnt1

Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 11, 2015, 09:23:25 AM
I'm 95% confident (hey I could be wrong!) that there isn't an Octane sensor.  Perhaps someone who really knows can chime in.  From everything I've seen LOR is "inferred" based on the engine's ability at different throttle positions to not knock.  If it can advance timing and not see knock at various load levels then it "assumes" that you must be running a higher octane fuel and it will advance the LOR so you get to run more timing.  If it sees too much knock then again the ECU assumes you've put in some craptastic gas and moves the LOR in the appropriate direction.

If that is how it works then ACES would HAVE to prevent knock to enhance LOR since that is the only way it can affect it.  There might be other variables involved with LOR though but again I don't think an actual Octane sensor enters in to the picture.  That said I have no idea what ACES claims to do so I can't comment. 

It would not surprise me if the car paid particular attention to knock and adjusting the LOR value right after you fill up.  That would trigger the algorithm in the ECU since you obviously just put new gas in.

I am basing most of observations off of this article:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/

Im pretty sure you are right about lack of actual octane sensor. And I know we splitting hairs here, but you can't put the cart before the horse. The LOR has to be seen BEFORE timing can be adjusted. A crappy LOR and no knock present nets more timing. But hi number of knocks and a superior LOR nets less timing. If ALL of the "protective" features built into the ECU are calculations, inferred, or theoretical any glitch in the primary sensor (there would have to be at least 1 physical sensor) used for calculation, the ECU fail to safe mode and NOT run. Theoretically.

I also don't believe throttle position directly affects ANY performance parameter. That is a calibration and variable used for fuel delivery/demand. (I guess that does affect performance huh lol). 100% throttle and inadequate fuel delivery or rail pressure per flow curve nets engine cutting power. Theoretically!

I have seen this on my GMC when throttle position and throttle body doesn't calibrate properly at startup. So it disables the drive by wire and truck becomes useless until reset.

All of the sensors and calibrations are part of a HUGE formula to determine and dictate load and demand.
2011 SHO, 3 Bar, AJP Turbo-Tune, ACES IV, Boostane 170 T-stat, PPE Catted DP's, Alpine Sound system, Touch screen HVAC controls, full window tint

FoMoCoSHO

There is no octane sensor. Octane is merely a fuels resistance to knock.  The car uses algorithms based on raw ks output combined with deductive fuel logic to determine fuel composition and octane.

SHOdded

No octane sensor in these cars, knock-inferred only.  You get "fuel composition" sensors if Ford originally built the vehicle to run E85 or otherwise be an FFV.  Examples of such sensors are Ford Part 9C044-AA and 9C044-BA, made for the FFV Ranger 3.0L engine.

P0178 Description

Fuel Composition Sensors are used to determine the amount of ethanol alcohol in the gasoline. Normally, a gasoline engine should not have more than 10% ethanol alcohol in the fuel for proper operation. Some vehicles have a Flexible Fuel (FF) system on them that allow them to run on up to 85% ethanol alcohol in the fuel. The fuel composition sensor sends a frequency modulated signal to the engine controller which is proportional to the alcohol content of the fuel. The injector pulse width and the ignition timing are modified for the increased alcohol content. It takes almost twice the amount of alcohol compared to gasoline to produce the same power.

Read more: http://www.helpforcars.net/obd_codes/p0178.html
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Dxlnt1

AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
2011 SHO, 3 Bar, AJP Turbo-Tune, ACES IV, Boostane 170 T-stat, PPE Catted DP's, Alpine Sound system, Touch screen HVAC controls, full window tint

Scott4957

Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 11, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: Scott4957 on December 11, 2015, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 11, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
I disagree with that last statement completely.  Data logs and timeslips are highly effective over a much broader range of operating conditions.

Scott4957

That's true. A better tune is not necessarily one that makes peak power. I should have said you can make peak power "just a number"
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

ecoboostsho

Well there IS a knock sensor...it just happens to be a microphone. Agreed on random KR events though.  I used to have knock spikes at the shift in a previous car but determined that it was just the noise from shifting setting off the "knock" sensor.  That said knock sensors and the software that processes the signal have gotten significantly better at identifying these types of events.  I trust mine. ;)
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

SHOdded

Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 11, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
"Modern cars such as the one above have well tuned "microphones" called knock sensors that pick up on these sounds and react very quickly to stop detonation when it starts. The 4 cylinder Ecoboost in the Focus ST has two of these little guys."
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

AJP turbo

SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

ZSHO

Quote from: ajpturbo link=topic=5087.msg88967#msg88967 date=1449 883839
My civic has 4 !...
AJ you mean 4 cylinders right.lol  Z    ;)


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

ZSHO

Quote from: Scott4957 on December 11, 2015, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 11, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
Little bit off topic but there is also a RRD Rough road detection system to eliminate false misfire indications due to the road condition,the RRD uses data from the ABS Wheel speed sensors for estimating the severity of the rough road.  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

AJP turbo

Quote from: ZSHO on December 12, 2015, 05:55:53 AM
Quote from: ajpturbo link=topic=5087.msg88967#msg88967 date=1449 883839
My civic has 4 !...
AJ you mean 4 cylinders right.lol  Z    ;)

Hell no...4 knock sensors.....one for each cylinder lol
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SHOdded

The Japanese DO know overkill, wouldn't put it past them :)
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!