Winter blend gas and E/85

IHeartGroceries · December 08, 2014, 04:13:36 PM

I went back and looked over a technical bulletin I received from PQ group about the new additive - it is indeed a different formulation. I'm no chemist, so the changes are like mumbo jumbo to me. So, it remains unclear what effects the revised formulation might have in your engine.

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SHOnUup · December 08, 2014, 04:54:05 PM

Thanks for the info IHG. Appreciate your knowledge in the area.

Rich

SHOdded · December 08, 2014, 05:51:26 PM

Playing armchair chemist ain't easy

We need to set up some chemists on a cloud computing network to crack the additive code!

SHOdded · January 10, 2015, 07:34:25 PM

Any further updates, ecoboostsho? Still knock-free? An upcoming paper in SAE regarding the possible mitigation of the pre-ignition (PI)-triggered severe engine knocks at low engine speeds:
http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0084/

Addresses the possibility that minimizing oil contamination in the combustion chamber is the key.

ecoboostsho · January 10, 2015, 07:59:04 PM

I've been running a mix of E16 and that eliminates any knock under normal running except for an occasional blip. What I have been watching though is right before the car warms up even the lightest throttle can produce what looks like up to 7 degrees if knock. I'm talking barely any throttle...no lugging and on flat ground. This only happens with a coolant temp between 140 and 160 in 5th gear cruising steady state. As soon as the goes closed loop at around 160 it won't knock at all. I can reproduce it every time. I am stumped....it doesn't seem to hurt anything but I'm not thrilled about it.

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SHOdded · January 10, 2015, 08:41:26 PM

Possibly the PCM's (TB? drive-by-wire) reaction time is involved here, not fast enough to adjust to throttle input.

Josephm · January 10, 2015, 10:24:21 PM

My 12 EB Flex does like the blend of E17. FP could not keep up -(

SHOnUup · February 06, 2015, 09:07:26 PM

E/85 tester

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiA6dGmBRC_3Mi-x_XywKsBEiQA1lcFP5RjHMKaJaCT_JihoYVah28ChdPVOupTIiec6OluAzIaAlIU8P8HAQ

Rich

Larrylu · February 09, 2015, 02:39:40 PM

Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 10, 2015, 07:59:04 PM
I've been running a mix of E16 and that eliminates any knock under normal running except for an occasional blip. What I have been watching though is right before the car warms up even the lightest throttle can produce what looks like up to 7 degrees if knock. I'm talking barely any throttle...no lugging and on flat ground. This only happens with a coolant temp between 140 and 160 in 5th gear cruising steady state. As soon as the goes closed loop at around 160 it won't knock at all. I can reproduce it every time. I am stumped....it doesn't seem to hurt anything but I'm not thrilled about it.

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Dave I have stumbled onto almost identical symptoms and I've decided to investigate the O2 sensor. In my case it happens much earlier in the warmup cycle. Under very cold conditions (20 degrees in the garage and single digit ambient), I fired the car up and slowly eased on down the road. I had zeroed out the KR gauge and at 30 mph, in 4th gear with no load, and steady speed. I had not gone 1/4 mile and happened to glance at the KR and caught it suddenly sweep from 0 to 7. It stayed there maybe a second or so and eased back down to 0 and stayed there. A couple of days ago when I was running my stock tune the exact same thing happened at almost the same spot in the road. The only difference is that stock my spike was 3.8. I'm just guessing but could the could this occur when the switch is made from open to closed? Another thing that gives me this idea is that if I'm using some throttle I may be forcing a switch to open and I've never had a high KR when flexing any muscle.

ecoboostsho · February 09, 2015, 03:43:28 PM

Larry - It's worth looking at. Torque actually has a built in gauge that will tell you when it is open or closed loop. The KR I get is almost exactly as you describe and occurs right BEFORE it goes in to closed loop (i.e. still in open loop) It starts occurring at a temp of about 145 degrees but only in 6th with a very small amount of throttle- it goes in to closed loop around 158/160. E-85 blend helps with the spike but I've actually figured out if I shift manually and stay out of 6th gear and keep the RPM's between about 2 and 3K (higher is fine but the car is warming up so I don't want to rev it out) then it won't occur. Once the car is at 160 I just pop it in D and move along. Once the car is in closed loop it is fine. I still plan on logging and see if I can understand what is going on. I'm not sure if there is a temperature timing adder just in open loop that causes the timing to advance to a point where it just knocks too easy. I will be logging throttle %, Coolant Temp, Knock, Timing, RPM, open/closed loop, AFR, and possibly engine load. If I can recreate it I can at least see what kind of timing it is calling for and go from there...

ecoboostsho · February 09, 2015, 04:23:05 PM

Further - when the car is in open loop it isn't using the O2 sensor (at least that is how I understand it). The car uses closed loop for almost every other case including WOT (which is different than my previous car but this car has a wideband so it can carefully monitor the air/fuel ratio). So...I don't know that the O2 sensor is to blame because if it was faulty then this condition should be showing up in Closed Loop. I still believe that is a condition that exists based on the open loop table is triggering this - but it also may be something is wrong with the car that is ultimately the issue if no-one but Larry and I are experiencing this.

Larrylu · February 09, 2015, 04:49:49 PM

I too noticed an improvement when using the "grade assist" which kept it out of 6th. This occurring in 4th gear is interesting to me. To actually see it happen as I'm driving and to know that this is not a lugging KR situation makes me feel like I'm getting closer to figuring it out. Is the closed/open loop gauge a built in or is it a custom PID.

ZSHO · February 09, 2015, 05:02:15 PM

Quote from: ecoboostsho on February 09, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Further - when the car is in open loop it isn't using the O2 sensor (at least that is how I understand it). The car uses closed loop for almost every other case including WOT (which is different than my previous car but this car has a wideband so it can carefully monitor the air/fuel ratio). So...I don't know that the O2 sensor is to blame because if it was faulty then this condition should be showing up in Closed Loop. I still believe that is a condition that exists based on the open loop table is triggering this - but it also may be something is wrong with the car that is ultimately the issue if no-one but Larry and I are experiencing this.

Only the wideband can be used to monitor AFR,the narrow band is used primarely to monitor air/fuel mixtures closely but not other air.fuel ratios.

IHeartGroceries · February 09, 2015, 11:59:21 PM

If you're talking about the difference between the two, the narrowband downstream of the cat(s) is placed to monitor catalytic efficiency. The upstream wideband is purposed to feedback data to the ECU for AFR logic and calculation.
There are plenty of WB equipped engines out there which still rely on open loop control during cold operarion AND high engine load. Most, in fact. WB just allows for much more acute adjustments to fueling, for the sake of emissions and efficiency.

FoMoCoSHO · February 11, 2015, 01:30:36 AM

My car is in closed loop before I can get it out of the garage.

From then on the only time it is in open loop is during decel fuel cutoff.