problem with methanol pump

Grimster · August 14, 2013, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: CoreyMS on August 14, 2013, 12:32:49 AM

That's the pressure switch making the pulsating, the pump reaches the pressure setting of the screw, cuts out then repeats to maintain the pressure set. That's how the pump works. If you notice in some advertisements some company's are selling "recirculation pumps", they don't pulse. The sureflo is supposed to.

The forum posts and random info I've found while google searching seems to back up what you just said. It's just how the pump was designed. I'll still take some video though...make sure it is pulsating the "normal" way. Hopefully this thread will help others who are just as mechanically inclined as myself (which is not very much, haha) with installation and troubleshooting their own water/meth system.

EcoBrick Bob · August 14, 2013, 03:38:50 PM

It does pulse per this definition, though from the original explanation, I thought it was doing something else. While I didn't lose pressure much in testing, adding a filter with a check valve (mine is AEM), it won't turn on and off like that, ie. pulse.

Later I changed pumps to one with potentially higher pressures, to make sure I was getting enough juice. However, that was likely a $200. waste, as the key is to make sure the spray is atomized thru the nozzle... higher pressure pump may spray more volume though. All numbers you see from suppliers are based on amount of liquid used per hr at 100 PSI.

Timtoolman · August 14, 2013, 07:23:08 PM

The pump pulsates and or runs constantly. Depending on how the signal I.E. pulse width signal and or boost initiates it , at least thats how the Snow Perf meth injection is set up with the surflow pump I have

EcoBrick Bob · August 14, 2013, 10:46:30 PM

Torrie's W/M system just uses the boost sensor to turn pump either on or off. So... unless pump is leaking, it shouldn't pulse per say where it goes on and off. Since there is no way to actually test the pump under boost with the hood up (at least that I know of), the only way to get pump to work is to push button with engine running at idle. And you want to do this as little as possible so as not to flood the engine with w/m solution.

With hood down and under WOT conditions, I don't know how one could tell if pump was actually pulsing on and off. My light shows continuous power to pump under wot conditions. Only takes a split second for pump to activate at 8 psi. Boost builds very quickly.

If one has a boost controller that varies voltage to the pump based on RPM and boost like Alky Control systems and many Devils Own and Snow, I could see the pump possibly pulsing, but even under those conditions, it would seem that the pump would just run slower and produce less psi for spray. I guess I don't see any benefit in having the pump pulse, simply because one would want a continuous smooth psi curve, and not one with up and down pressures when under wot conditions.

Am I missing something?

EcoBrick Bob · August 14, 2013, 10:50:43 PM

Another thing to note... Alky Control wants their W/M pumps to be mounted below the outlet of both the reservoir and the spray nozzle, as this keeps the pump continuously under prime via gravity. This is definitely a good safety procedure. But... like anything electric or electronic, there is no guarantee that a boost controller will shut off when off wot. A boost switch is less likely to fail as it is less complex.

Grimster · August 17, 2013, 12:05:51 AM

I took some video of the pulsation as to better illustrate what I'm experiencing. Take a look and let me know what you think. My knee jerk reaction is to put a bigger nozzle on...but I dunno....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKB3ElOr9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Btw - I'm only using washer fluid that has methanol, water and a tiny bit of blue dye. So don't be alarmed at the blue color, haha. I'll end up mixing my own later, but for now at least during the testing of this system that's what I'm using .

EcoBrick Bob · August 17, 2013, 12:26:31 PM

Is the spray from the nozzle also surging?

Remember, all these Shurflo pumps work the same way.

When you go to a larger nozzle, you have to have adequate pressure to atomize the liquid coming out of it. This pump should be fine if you're sure you have adjusted it to max psi, but I did go to a higher pressure pump, and turned it all the way to full psi.

Grimster · August 21, 2013, 07:48:53 PM

I have adjusted the pump to it's full output (2 more clockwise turns of that screw) so I should be at 160psi according to the install literature I have. The surging is still there, but it is so fast that it is a fairly constant flow. I am confident that it is working as designed and everything is ok.

I have datalogged the car and went through a couple of back and forths via email with Torrie to tweak the tune. The car runs great and feels very strong.

Only thing I might change in the near future is to change to a dedicated reservoir for the water/meth mixture instead of using the washer reservoir.

Now I just need to find a free weekend so I can take the car to the track! haha

Timtoolman · August 21, 2013, 07:54:38 PM

I turned 1/4 turn today should be about 230 psi, it started. To quench the motor when letting off gas, primary nozzle is a #60 so I just raised the level to 8 lbs when it starts, no problem so far.
I did the dedicated tank 7 gals , last quite awhile.

EcoBrick Bob · August 21, 2013, 08:07:17 PM

The best solution is to use your current Windshield Washer Pump for W/M and add a small reservoir for spraying windshield fluid. Actually, unless you are like BPD who is on his car WOT more than not, why add a tank. If you continue to use WWF as W/M spray, it is really cheap. Even when I was spraying 70+% methanol, at $3.00 a gal at Cedar Falls Raceway, I never added a tank. Straight methanol really cleans windshields great!!! Smells even better, and if bugs are really bad, just light the stuff on fire and burn'em off!!!!

StrawHatShinobi · August 21, 2013, 11:55:00 PM

When you guys are logging with your meth running are you seeing a lower duty cycle on your fuel PID? Even with mine on I'm still seeing it hit 48%.

Grimster · August 22, 2013, 10:30:34 AM

Quote from: redsand on August 21, 2013, 11:55:00 PM
When you guys are logging with your meth running are you seeing a lower duty cycle on your fuel PID? Even with mine on I'm still seeing it hit 48%.

Comparing my two logs I did - one with the performance tune without meth.....and one with the performance tune with meth...

Im hitting .48 on each (isn't that 96% of the pump's rated value?....not 48%?)

So the fuel delivery isnt being cut back....but the water/meth is being supplemented. Allows for more aggressive timing...more boost...etc.

Grimster · August 22, 2013, 10:31:59 AM

tuned without water/meth

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bZWhfcEJ4dWc0bXM/edit?usp=sharing

tuned with water/meth

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bc215amg5VVE5elU/edit?usp=sharing

I still have room to grow with my methanol tune. I'll keep it as is for now...I like the idea of a good safety margin on my daily driver

EcoPowerParts · August 22, 2013, 10:48:38 AM

That's the lift pump (in tank fuel pump) you guys are seeing and that is going to be maxed out all the time during WOT. You need to be watching the fuel rail pressure, I can't get that in SCT but I can in torque. I've asked Tim Roi at SCT to add it, we'll see if they can.

EcoBrick Bob · August 22, 2013, 11:37:45 PM

I see FRP in my SCT logs.. I use an SCT 3. Or am I missing something? When FRP gets below around 1200, I got goosebumps, even when spraying a high concentration of Methanol.