Torque PIDs...Take 2

[Dxlnt1]

So I think I have the "monitoring" PID's working now. And fixed issue with with Torque pro connecting. (Was IP address setting). However the mx is still dropping connections. I am waiting for replacement reader to show up.

This is pic of screen with car idling. Help me to decipher the raw data knock sensors. They are reading 173/187. With engine idling and goosing the engine, I get no knock retard. So are the raw knock reading normal to have? And is it only a problem if timing is being pulled? Is the knock retard the only number to be concerned with? This is the the 93 4+X tune loaded, with 91 octane fuel and the ACES IV.

The LOR reading is changing. I don't believe it in this pic. I think because car just idling and been sitting all day reading is erroneous. Car first started it showed -1, then to -.7 This probably all due to car just idling. So I need to add the OAR PID to help validate.

[ecoboostsho]

What you want is the knock ignition timing PID not the individual sensor counts. I think it's 2203ec but I'm going from memory so check the first post in this thread. I've never seen the LOR change from just idling and blipping the throttle. Usually it will only change unless it's been flashed, battery disconnected, or you've got actual knock. If its high enough the LOR will react quickly. Not sure I guess at this point until we see your ignition timing correction (knock retard) value.

[Dxlnt1]

Good memory.

The knock retard is showing as 0. The ignition timing is showing as 12 deg.

Again I have little faith in my obd reader reliability but if its trending correctly this is what is happening. So I can ignore individual sensors and just watch KR? When I leave work tonight, I will try to log a few things. I think I have room for 1 quick WOT pull before I get into trouble.

[FoMoCoSHO]

I would tread cautiously. That oar number is telling you you dont have the octane you need for your tune.

I run the knock count gauges but have yet to figure out what they mean in relation to Kr and timing.

[SHOdded]

From what this post says, Knock Count is relevant to OBDI vehicles, as it is an actual knock event being noted.  On OBDII, it is a voltage reading for internal use by the ECU to determine whether & how much to pull timing.

Originally Posted by DSMJim in the 4th Gen Forum

Ok, this is the funny thing.. Knock count I'm refering to is what is viewed on a OBD1 DSM, it's so many counts per a period of time. I don't know what that period is, doesn't really matter just as long as that count doesn't exceed 40 at the very most (even that's dangerous). Many people who read DSM tuning guides don't know what the number mean or how they apply to a different car.

OBD2 doesn't see knock in a number like 5-10 as I have been refering, it shows a raw number that the computer deciphers. I believe it's given from the sensor in Ohm's or Voltage and is then converted by the computer into a number which it uses. If you hook up a SAFC2 and look at the knock readout during normal driving you will see numbers like 40-50 showing up but it's not knock because cars don't knock at part throttle at all, pretty well impossible under there is some big *** hill your trying to climb or something that puts lots of load on the engine. That makes the number from the stock knock sensor pretty much uselss.

On OBD2 (or OBD1 for that matter) when you get lots of knock timing will start to get pulled. So your best way to monitor knock is by watching timing. If your at WOT and 4500rpm your timing is 16deg, then 5000rpm its 17deg then 5500 it goes back to 15deg you know you had knock between 5000-5500rpm because timing got yanked 2deg right there. Timing should gradually ramp up with RPM to redline. If you start at 16deg at 4500 and slowly end up at 22deg at 7000rpm then that's a pretty good curve and it goes up one or two deg every 500rpm or so, your golden. It doesn't matter how much knock the computer is seeing, because its not enough to pull timing back. If you keep timing happy and rising nicely though the rpm band then knock WILL be under control. Doesn't matter if it's zero or 1000 the computer will determine if and when to advance timing based on what the knock sensor send back to it. If your Air/fuel ratio is good then you will have little or no knock and the computer will advance timing normally.

It all comes down to Air/Fuel. Don't aim for a specific number like 12:1 if your turbo because you heard thats the best. If your car ramps timing up faster at 11.6:1 or something like that then it's happier being there then leaner at 12:1. Basically get your A/F into the right zone for your application (11.2 - 11.5:1 for Nitrous, 11.5-12.0:1 for Turbo and 12.9 - 13.3:1 for All motor all at WOT) then make adjustment until your timing ramps up the fastest and goes to the highest number. Thats then you know your running the right air/fuel that makes your motor happy, timing is good and knock is under control and your making the most power.

Rich cars lose power, lean cars make power but risk blowing up, the first sign of which is knock then pistons with holes in them. You want to stick to the safe side on the street so tune rich (not crazy but it your turbo shoot for 11.5:1 to start not 12.0:1) and go from there. Once you have spent some time tuning your car and going to the track and seeing what works for you, you will know exactly what makes your particular motor/setup happy and make the most HP. Then you won't have to listen to guys on the internet tell you what to do because you will know what to do.

Sample Knock Sensor Voltage graphs from a BMW site:
NO KNOCK

KNOCK

[AJP turbo]

Quick thing at a glance i saw that is wrong with that statement...yes timing should advance gradually as rpm rises thats provided load doesnt change...load is almost never consant in these ecoboosts at wot...they are trying to maintain a certain level or torque and the engine varies its efficiency at different loads and rpms so boost will change at different torque levels.

So if load jumps up at high rpms then timing will go down simply because its following the spark tables....so the timing simply going down as rpms increase may not be indicative of any knock event or knock retard

[AJP turbo]

Also i wouldnt run as lean as what that guy suggests....his numbers are more apprpriate for race cars all across the board...the risk reward isnt there...the coyote mustangs run high 11's afr even at n/a...alot of factory boosted cars run high 10's afr....real power comes from timing advance and not leaning out the fuel mix but level of safety goes way up when u run rich

[FoMoCoSHO]

I've seen that article but the numbers I see don't correlate at all....

I see 60-600, and I don't see any rhyme or reason how things fit together....

I will say the max number hasn't been above 540 since I went back on the corn....E20

Maybe the pid is wrong?

[SHOdded]

60-600 ... millivolts?  Every engine has its' own calibration from the manufacturer, and the threshold will change with RPM & load.

[AJP turbo]

That guy dsm jim is trying to simplify and correlate different knock algorithyms between way too many platforms...every manufacturer uses different knock sesnor and timing logic....some are dynamic and some arent

In my civic si which is obdii u do not ever rely on the knock sensors to pull timing even though there is a knock sensor for every cylinder..it can not pull timing fast enough they are used for estimation of fuel octane and kind of work like long term fuel trims

And judging by his name he has experience with dsm tuning so alot changes

[AJP turbo]

Wow just read some more snipets of dsmjims post....he said u dont ever get knock during part throttle?!...its actually really easy to get knock there since timing is really advanced and u are in closed loop running at or near stoic meaning very lean at 14:1 or even leaner.

The guy sounds like he knows enough to get in trouble with tuning...he makes some good points but id throw most of what he says out the window

[FoMoCoSHO]

60-600 ... millivolts?  Every engine has its' own calibration from the manufacturer, and the threshold will change with RPM & load.

So .6 volts from the knock sensor max?

They are typically 0-5 volts, correct?

Does that .6 seem realistic?

[SHOdded]

What I meant was that you are seeing the readings possibly in millivolts, not actual counts of identified knock.  On my Edge, IIRC, I have seen the counts in ForScan rise with RPM, for example, I will check again the next time I get a chance to log.  Let's say the threshold is 1 V or 1000 mV.  Anything over 1000 would then be a knock event and dealt with accordingly by, for example, retarding timing.  The threshold is not static, as engine behavior changes with RPM & load.

[FoMoCoSHO]

What I meant was that you are seeing the readings possibly in millivolts, not actual counts of identified knock.  On my Edge, IIRC, I have seen the counts in ForScan rise with RPM, for example, I will check again the next time I get a chance to log.  Let's say the threshold is 1 V or 1000 mV.  Anything over 1000 would then be a knock event and dealt with accordingly by, for example, retarding timing.  The threshold is not static, as engine behavior changes with RPM & load.

After further reading, I'm pretty sure that you are correct, it is millivolts.

[polskifacet]

2013 non-PP AWD PIDS don't work. Everything else seems good! Got the latest csv from first page.