Interesting Video Warning on Ethanol Use

StrawHatShinobi · February 18, 2014, 01:11:32 AM

I've been running E30 my last few tanks with no neg effects. I would like to tune for it though to get the most out of it. Actually as of late I get as good of mileage with it as I do with 91e10

crash712us · February 18, 2014, 05:07:39 AM

Good luck with that. No one will, as the fuel system isn't capable of supporting it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

StrawHatShinobi · February 19, 2014, 12:12:39 AM

Funny thing is Ford has tested the 3.5 eco with E30 so obviously it will and I'm able to run it with no ill effects. I'll see if I can find the article about it and post the link.
The thing I find odd in this whole debate about the fuel system is we have a stout HPFP, the largest GDI injectors Bosch makes but we're out of fuel? How are these other GDI's making more with less?

EcoPowerParts · February 19, 2014, 12:29:28 AM

Here's a cool article on it, kind of based my work off this paper.
http://saefuel.saejournals.org/content/2/1/670.abstract

StrawHatShinobi · February 19, 2014, 01:35:10 AM

Thanks Mike, here's a link to the study of E10-E30 in the 3.5 eco. I think running a tune for what the E30 adds would help overall the performance/economy. Ive run as high as 16 gallons of E85, when cruising the trims can go a little high but if I stomp on the gas every thing goes where its commanded.

http://papers.sae.org/2013-01-1321/

SHOdded · February 19, 2014, 04:18:12 AM

I would think you should at the very least move to a severe duty maintenance cycle for both engine/transmission.

StrawHatShinobi · February 19, 2014, 11:29:18 PM

Emailed Torrie tonight, he said he's been doing E30 tunes. So I'm going to log where I'm at now running his tune and see if we can come up with something NASTY! I've been spoiled by the ***, MPT throttle response, so I'd like to see if he's added to that over the past year to keep competitive. If not, well I'll see what we can come up with if he's on board.

FoMoCoSHO · February 19, 2014, 11:37:58 PM

My car is running quite wickedly on E30.

I can't wait for Torrie to tune The Big Girl this spring.

StrawHatShinobi · February 20, 2014, 12:33:56 AM

Torrie knows his stuff, honestly the thing that pulled me away was the lack of throttle response, if we can get that worked out and get this bad boy flying on E30 I'm in.

FoMoCoSHO · February 20, 2014, 12:45:28 AM

Quote from: StrawHatShinobi on February 20, 2014, 12:33:56 AM
Torrie knows his stuff, honestly the thing that pulled me away was the lack of throttle response, if we can get that worked out and get this bad boy flying on E30 I'm in.

Interesting you say that.

I see that when I increase the blend but the stock tune is able to trim itself out in a day or 2 and fix it.

Same with fuel economy, it goes into the toilet then works itself out.

IHeartGroceries · February 25, 2014, 07:51:19 AM

Any updates on tuning with mild E blends?
I'm sure it isn't something some tuners are content with, seeing as there will always been the potential for inconsistency when blending at a retail gas dispenser...

And as far as running a stock tune with E30...meh.
Just because you are witnessing the car continuously attempting to maximize efficiency in closed loop operation, doesn't mean there's benefit in heavy load, open loop operation. The benefit comes simply from staving KR, both with octane enhancement and cooling the charge in the cylinders. I still wager the threshold for just that benefits falls between E15 and E20.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

FoMoCoSHO · February 25, 2014, 09:40:03 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on February 25, 2014, 07:51:19 AM
Any updates on tuning with mild E blends?
I'm sure it isn't something some tuners are content with, seeing as there will always been the potential for inconsistency when blending at a retail gas dispenser...

And as far as running a stock tune with E30...meh.
Just because you are witnessing the car continuously attempting to maximize efficiency in closed loop operation, doesn't mean there's benefit in heavy load, open loop operation. The benefit comes simply from staving KR, both with octane enhancement and cooling the charge in the cylinders. I still wager the threshold for just that benefits falls between E15 and E20.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

As far as blend consistency, all you have to do is find the MSDS sheet, use an ethanol calculator, and the fuel level function in Torque to get a consistent mix.

When exactly do these cars run in heavy load open loop?

The only time my car goes into open loop is when you lift and the car goes into decel fuel shutoff.

I do agree that best performance will probably fall somewhere below 30%, the law of diminishing returns and all.

FoMoCoSHO · February 25, 2014, 09:43:59 PM

I forgot to answer your 1st question.

Second tank (@ e-29) and all is well.

Fuel economy is actually a little better so far. (Last tank ended at 17.

If there's anything specific i can answer, let me know.

IHeartGroceries · February 25, 2014, 10:14:45 PM

Your engine's ECU operates in open loop control before the engine is up to operating temp., under WOT, and under heavy load conditions.
Otherwise, while cruising or at idle, it operates in closed loop, and references O2S input signal to continuously balance fuel injection, in order to maintain a stoich AFR. That is what fuel trims indicate - the minute, incremental adjustments to fueling, in order to achieve stoichiometry.
And the stoich AFR between ETOH laden gas and conventional (or E10) is different.
Your E30, oxygen enriched gasoline is starving the engine for fuel, which is why you see fuel trims max out in the positives, and why your mileage Sucks, and the ECU is dumping tons of fuel into the cylinders.
But, under WOT, when you're having the most fun, the E30 (or whatever) will lose its effect pretty quickly, because the stock ECU tables are not formatted to truly utilize the benefits of ethanol blends - your utilizing E10 open loop tables formulated by Ford engineers with your E-whatever. Your AFR and timing tables will act accordingly.

Though, I do figure, like I've already stated, there is a possibility the ECU references a separate set of tables, if certain conditions are right, onset by E15 or E20 use. These cars, afterall, are "E15 ready", correct?

Even so, I dont doubt the benefits at all of E. In fact, I threw a couple gallons in with my super the other day. Seems to work nicely with my stage 4 Livernois tune. I haven't logged any date yet, however.

Check out black death or fuel pump black gunk on Google. Some people go too far with E.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

FoMoCoSHO · February 25, 2014, 10:38:52 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on February 25, 2014, 10:14:45 PM
Your engine's ECU operates in open loop control before the engine is up to operating temp., under WOT, and under heavy load conditions.
Otherwise, it operates in closed loop, and references O2S input signal to continuously balance fuel injection, in order to maintain a stoich AFR. That is what fuel trims indicate - the minute, incremental adjustments to fueling.
And the stoich AFR between ETOH laden gas and conventional (or E10) is different.
Your E30, oxygen enriched gasoline is starving the engine for fuel, which is why you see fuel trims max out in the positives.
But, under WOT, when you're having the most fun, the E30 (or whatever) will lose its effect pretty quickly, because the stock ECU tables are not formatted to truly utilize the benefits of ethanol blends - your utilizing E10 open loop tables formulated by Ford engineers with your E-whatever.

Though, I do figure, like I've already stated, there is a possibility the ECU references a separate set of tables, if certain conditions are right, onset by E15 or E20 use. These cars, afterall, are "E15 ready", correct?

Even so, I dont doubt the benefits at all of E. In fact, I threw a couple gallons in with my super the other day. Seems to work nicely with my stage 4 Livernois tune. I haven't logged any date yet, however.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

According to Torque my car does not go into open loop at WOT, just startup and lift conditions.

I'm confused when you say starved for fuel but I have plenty of fuel pressure at the rail. Obviously it has to add fuel to compensate for E-85 but does the mean its actually not receiving enough fuel to cause a dangerous situation?

And if your assertion about the second set of tables is correct, then at 30% it seems the car would be unable to hit the commanded AFR and throw a cel which hasn't happened....yet. My suspicion based upon my experiences is the Eco uses the same deductive refueling logic the flex fuel vehicles do because it behaves in the exact manner described. The flex fuel vehicles don't change AFR either, just trim adjustments, or at least that's my understanding of it based on some papers I put up in 4drs E-85 thread

I agree that my commanded AFR is not perfect with the blend. As the E-85 blend goes up, stoich should decrease, correct?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm trying to reconcile your info against my experiences and research. My mind is open to the fact that I could be wrong on any and all accounts.