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Consolidated Ecoboost Fueling thread

Started by 05yellowgt, October 07, 2013, 04:28:00 PM

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05yellowgt

I'm trying to find as much information about the 3.5 Ecoboost DI fuel system as possible.  I'd like to get it all in one thread for convenience purposes.


The Fuel system that powers the 3.5 Ecoboost is made up of two sub-systems.  Those systems are the low pressure feed system and the high pressure Direct Injection system.  The low pressure system consists of a returnless setup, consisting of an in tank pump that delivers fuel to the High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP).  The HPFP is a mechanical pump with an electronically controlled pressure relief system that manages the fuel pressure delivered to the Direct Injectors.  The pressure can be regulated up to 2150PSI.


4DRHTRD has created a solution to the limits to the HPFP issue by creating an Auxiliary Fuel system by modifying a stock intake manifold to accept port fuel injectors and used a stand alone fuel controller to handle the port injectors.  A good link to read up on it can be found here.  http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=462.msg2519#msg2519


Now, let us try to dig into the HPFP itself.  It is sourced from Bosch and is mechanical in nature.  It is driven by an extra cam lobe on one of the cams on the driver's side head (on the F150).  This cam lobe is 4 sided, meaning that each revolution of the crankshaft, actuates the HPFP 4 times.  The system has an electronically controlled bypass to regulate the fuel pressure up to a maximum of 2150psi.  I've been digging to find specs on the fuel pump itself and haven't found any definitive information.  The following thread quotes some flow numbers that I will show below.  http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/f-150-274/914450-2013-ecoboost-f150-dyno-today.html


Here are the numbers from that thread.
QuoteBased on the data from Ford the HPFP is capable of flowing a maximum of the following fuel volume in lb/hr vs RPM:
RPM - LB/HR
500 - 30.1606
1000 - 60.3211
1500 - 90.4817
2000 - 120.6423
2500 - 150.8028
3000 - 180.9634
3500 - 211.1239
4000 - 241.2845
4500 - 271.4451
5000 - 301.6056
5500 - 331.7662
6000 - 361.9268

It is RPM based since the HPFP flows x volume per cam revolution.
Given the flow rate you can calculate the Max BHP attainable (without draining the fuel rails) vs RPM.

Converting those numbers from LB/hr to L/hr of gasoline you come up with a maximum flow potential of about 227L/hr of gasoline.  227L/hr can support somewhere somewhere in the 500-550Bhp depending on the BSFC of the 3.5 Ecoboost. (something I would love to know as I have looked for hours and can't find the BSFC for a stock 3.5 Ecoboost motor).  That would jive right about what we are seeing as far as data logs on most tuned Ecoboost 3.5's.  Even Boost only tunes can show the fuel pressure starting to fall off, though not to the point of leaning out the motor.

Doing some math, I can work backwards and figure out that the stock pump flows .15 cubic centimeters of fuel per stroke.  I have found a Bosch website that lists a series of HPFP's that all flow 1.1 cubic centimeters of fuel per stroke.  site can be found here. http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2832.htm

IF (and I'm making some assumptions based on my crude math of the flow of the stock pump) my math is right, the Bosch Motorsports pumps should provide around 2500lb/Hr of fuel at the same 6000rpm.  In my mind that should provide all the fuel we'd ever need, provided it can keep up the volume and pressure.



Finally getting to the Direct injectors themselves, I have found no flow data for them.  Hopefully we can add that later as we learn more.



Edit: added additional low pressure fuel pump info.  Thanks to EcoBrick Bob!
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

BlueSHO

Good info..thx

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

2016 SHO Blue Jeans
2001 Lightning
1996 Mystic Cobra

EcoBrick Bob

The LPFP is a return-less system.  The size of the line may be another limitation.  I have used a Kenne Bell Boost-a-pump, which based on my observations, helps HPFP pressure by a couple hundred PSI at it's lowest boost #'s, which with my stock turbo's and 3 bar sensor, seem to occur in 2nd gear in the 4,500+ RPM range.  Once in 3rd, the FRP recovers somewhat and remains above 1,500 PSI. 4 DR's new Squash fuel system is a recirculating fuel system, where he installed a new main line and used the old line as the return line.
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

EcoPowerParts

I'm actually going to be able to offer a returnless sytem that will work with stock lines. Just waiting for everything to be finished up.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

05yellowgt

Any idea on the size of the stock lines?  Is the system cueca nick or electronic return less?
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

EcoPowerParts

Quote from: 05yellowgt on October 07, 2013, 06:52:21 PM
Any idea on the size of the stock lines?  Is the system cueca nick or electronic return less?
3/8" lines. I don't know what ceuca nick means....
The new system I'm planning on will be an electronic FPR under the hood that is returnless to work with the dual pumps in the tank.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

05yellowgt

It was supposed to say mechanical return less or electronic returnless
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

DJE624

#7
Quote from: 05yellowgt on October 07, 2013, 06:52:21 PM
Any idea on the size of the stock lines?  Is the system cueca nick or electronic return less?
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on October 07, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: 05yellowgt on October 07, 2013, 06:52:21 PM
Any idea on the size of the stock lines?  Is the system cueca nick or electronic return less?
3/8" lines. I don't know what ceuca nick means....
The new system I'm planning on will be an electronic FPR under the hood that is returnless to work with the dual pumps in the tank.
Quote from: 05yellowgt on October 07, 2013, 06:55:28 PM
It was supposed to say mechanical return less or electronic returnless

Priceless.

05yellowgt

That is what I get for using this tiny iphone with my big ole mits and not looking at what I typed before hitting submit.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

05yellowgt

BTW, as new information is added I will be editing the top post and will be sure to cite the member who provided the info as a little thanks.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

05yellowgt

Good news bad news time.

Good news, I made some inquiries and found out more info about the stock HPFP.
Bad news, The Bosch pump that Ford sources for the Ecoboost is already the highest performing, HPFP that they offer.


Finally some hurry up and wait news.  Modded/higher performance direct injectors are being worked on, possible news at this year's SEMA.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

05yellowgt

Back to muddy the waters. 

The stock pump can flow 1.3cm^3 of fuel per stroke, per Shaun@AED, but he stated that the cam lobe is only 3 sided and not 4.  I almost hope it is 3 sided.  If so, then we can increase the flow of the stock HPFP by 33% by getting a 4 lobed cam developed.  That only gives enough to run stock boost levels with E85, but it would allow pump gas and upgraded turbos live together. 


I need to get time to go back and edit the first post with what new information we have.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

EcoPowerParts

Car cam is 4 lobe, truck is 3 lobe
Car exploded engine:
http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-ford/FMC-engines/6m35d-ecoboost/EcoBoost_ExploView_02_HR.jpg

Supposedly the truck pump flows more than the car so that + the 4 lobe means if we could adapt a truck pump (different located ports) then with the 4th lobe we'd have more DI fuel.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

05yellowgt

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on October 17, 2013, 11:39:18 AM
Car cam is 4 lobe, truck is 3 lobe
Car exploded engine:
http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-ford/FMC-engines/6m35d-ecoboost/EcoBoost_ExploView_02_HR.jpg

Supposedly the truck pump flows more than the car so that + the 4 lobe means if we could adapt a truck pump (different located ports) then with the 4th lobe we'd have more DI fuel.
Which brings up the next question.  What are the differences in cam profiles between the truck and the cars other than the 3 vs 4 lobe for the fuel pump.  It would be far to convenient for them to be identical for the truck guys.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

EcoBrick Bob

So... doesn't this mean that the truck pump has more volume than car pump?  If so how can our cars have Bosch's largest DI pump?

2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.