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Boost leak help

Started by FiveLeeter918, July 31, 2019, 03:52:39 PM

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FiveLeeter918

Hey guys, about to slam my head into a wall so figured I'd come and poll the audience for input. Life is busy these days and don't have a full weekend to troubleshoot so looking for potential ideas ya'll can think of.

Backgound:
- 2013 Ford Taurus SHO, 72k miles
- XDI-35 hpfp w E30 tune, EPP hot pipes w/ stock BPVs, Gearhead intercooler, BBK throttle body, Airaid Intake, Stainless Works Downpipes, stock catback

Car has been tuned since 22k miles. About 5k miles ago I popped a CEL for a large EVAP leak. Decided to datalog and found that my fuel trims were 1.09 at idle, 1.14 cruising, and 1.32 (yea) at wot and I was now only seeing 12-15 psi instead of the 18 I was getting previously. Used IDS to cycle the purge valve and found it to be bad. Replaced it, no more light but the fuel trims and boost issues remained.

Did a pressure/smoke test and found a few leaking couplers and also found a crack in the oem throttle body so replaced it. Fuel trims dropped to 1.06 at idle, 1.09 cruising, and 1.24 wot. This week I replaced the front and rear pcv valves after finding the rear one to be bad, and as of today (cleared KAM yesterday morning) this is my data:

stft idle - 1.00
stft cruise - 1.06
stft wot - 0.94-0.98
ltft cruise - 1.00
ltft wot - 1.13
commanding 0.81 lambda, seeing 0.87-0.81 wot
hpfp 17.57 mpa (2550 psi)
wastegates are at 95%, were in the 60s before
commanding 232 kpa, only seeing 200 kpa

I replaced the spark plugs last week just to check, but it appears that I have a pretty big leak that can't seem to be found with smoke or positive pressure.

And before anyone mentions the tune, we've tuned this setup many times with great luck, so the chances that our tune is messed up isn't likely.

Last log before I popped the CEL had wastegates around 60% and boost was only about 5 kpa off commanded with near perfect fuel trims.

I was tossing ideas back and forth with a friend that's an ASE tech, and he suggested possibly needing to replace the boost solenoid, but I wasn't really seeing any issues similar to this when checking.

I scoped the impellers when I installed the downpipes and hot pipes and didn't notice any damage or play in the shaft or vanes.

Thoughts? Car is no slouch, it still runs 12.42 @ 110 consistently but feel it should have a lot more in it.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

ZSHO

#1
It could be a waste-gate hose that is leaking coming from the Boost reference solenoid too Front or Rear actuator! I think you referenced changing both PCV valves and think you meant both front & rear BOV! Z

Check the 1/4 Hoses to verify they are not leaking and also make certain its securely connected to charge pipe with a mini hose clamp which Ford never updated!

Hoses from Boost reference solenoid




2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

FiveLeeter918

nope, meant the PCV valves. Replaced the brown on and then installed the revised green in place of the black pass-through.

Both BPVs/BOVs looked fine when I installed the hot pipes, and no bubbles when doing the positive pressure/soapy water test.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

FiveLeeter918

See attached for log snapshots between 12-8 and yesterday.

12-8 log was just Airaid intake and E30.

Installed GH intercooler and downpipes in February and started having issues shortly after. Installed hot pipes and throttle body to remedy leaks found during smoke test, but issues still persist.

We've tuned several cars with the GH intercooler without issue, so don't think it's tune related.

12-8 log has LTFTs at 1.00 and STFTs are 0.98-1.02 at wot.

Ideas?
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

SHOdded

#4
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor 
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

FiveLeeter918

Quote from: SHOdded on July 31, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

yea actuators are my next check, gonna hook them up to the air compressor and make sure they are both opening correctly and that there are no cracks in the line

noisemaker went away with the hot pipes.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

FiveLeeter918

Quote from: SHOdded on July 31, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor

bad purge valve is what triggered all of this. :)
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

avidmotion

yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...
Sp542@.028, windstorm CAI, MSD coils, AO GH TUNE, GH intercooler, All Amsoil, General Gmax-rs summer tires, +PP, PP PADS,EDC rotors, Colinite 476s wax, used PPE DPs, Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete with custom X pipe, Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts|, 3 bar, stock thermostat,  TRACY LEWIS DESIGNED Team RXP, the Original oil separator.

FiveLeeter918

Quote from: SHOdded on August 01, 2019, 02:05:21 AM
All is well then?

no haha the CEL for the purge valve is what prompted me to datalog and discover the other issues. I changed the purge valve out which got rid of the CEL but still have the wonky fuel trims and boost bleed off issue.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

FiveLeeter918

Quote from: avidmotion on August 01, 2019, 09:50:00 AM
yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...

Not fixed yet, looking for other ideas. The front pcv is really a pass through tube no check valve, I just changed it because the O-ring bubbled when sprayed with soapy water.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

ZSHO

Ahh! Front PCV Tube/elbow! New Gaskets installed with DP! I noticed you have the SW Catted DP and wanted to know if you needed to modify the Front 02 sensor NPT Bungs since your issues started after the DP & IC install! TOL! Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

FiveLeeter918

front and rear pcv valve's changed this week, yes has to relocate the front wideband since I'm a PP. New gaskets were used at the turbos.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

FiveLeeter918

Welp following up, went back to 91 to eliminate any fuel trims from that, and had a buddy come over Saturday night to troubleshoot. Installed my boost leak tester, pressured up to 5 psi and you could hear a faint noise. Went to 10 and it was very apparent that we had a leak.

Turned out the boot T-clamp popped off the rear turbo which was affecting wastegate readout. All fixed!
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

802SHO

Glad to hear you got it fixed!
IG @802SHO 2010 SHO non PP, Tuned by AJP Turbo, 109 Octane + VP C85 for E30, Ported GH Gen 3 upgraded turbos, Ported 13+ Exhaust Manifolds, Custom FM IC TreadStone TR10C, EPP Hot Pipes, EPP Dual CAI, XDI35 HPFP, Deatschwerks 300C LPFP, Alky Control Methonal Injection, Alky dual nozzle upgrade, Zex Nitrous dual dry shots, Dicunzolo Gen2 torque mounts, MSD Coils, SP542 .026, 160 T, 3bar, Phenolic Spacer, Braille Lightweight Battery, Kirky Lightweight Racing Driver Seat, Catless Downpipes, custom stainless 2.5" double xpipe w/muffler deletes 4" quad tips, UPR Dual Valve Catch Can, 13+ PP Trans Cooler, Econoaid throttle Body Booster, Bravado Tribute 20x9.5 + 32 offset Wheels, Nitto NT555R Front Tires, Continental Extreme Contact DW Rear Tires and all are 275/35/20, H&R Springs all around w/rear cut 1/2", 1" hubcentric wheel spacers m14 1.5 stud/lug conversion, R1 Concepts Geomet slotted/drilled rotors with Heavy Duty Semi Metallic pads, Aeroforce Interceptor Gauge.
Currently World's Fastest Ecoboost SHO
11.063 @ 123.17 MPH!  NED 10/10/20