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Author Topic: tial wastegate for charge piping  (Read 47431 times)

Offline AJP turbo

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tial wastegate for charge piping
« on: July 30, 2016, 09:21:42 AM »
This is the newly patented AJP turbo "boost regulator". When any of the large companies copy and replicate this idea for mass production at least give me some recognition and gratitude.....You're welcome in advance.

In the SHO and probably  other ecoboost cars especially in automatics I think, there is an inherent nature to have boost spikes upon WOT upshifts...The turbos are spinning fast just before the shift then the engine RPM's suddenly fall and the turbo doesn't slow down fast enough and the engine isn't consuming the air at 4500 like it was at 6000. So airflow builds and boost spikes

If the throttle is left open then boost will spike...Ford uses the throttle in this case to close, then you get TIP spikes...When the throttle closes briefly it keeps MAP down to what it should have but the TIP pressure will spike because the airflow hits a wall(Throttle blade).

I've tried many ways to make the wastegates more responsive and adjust wastegate duty cycle tables but nothing worked well.

In a perfect world you want the throttle open for performance benefits but no boost spikes....I'll post pics of the benefits..Boost spikes are bad for fuel pressure, stft's and knock....Abrupt increase in load(boost) cause knock, fuel pressure gets depleted because fuel trims will increase to maintain afr because when pressure falls more injector duty is needed which sucks fuel from the rail...Pressure falls which can also lead to knock in direct injection where pressure is critical
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:58:33 AM by AJP turbo »
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 11:18:01 AM »
In the first 2 pics pink is throttle, RPM is jagged and darker line is MAP(boost)...They aren't great examples because at higher commanded boost the boost spikes are worse so even though they look similar it really is a good improvement and fuel pressure was better...I'm trying not to crowd the pic with lines.

See boost peaks when the shift happens..When you use the throttle to control boost spikes, the peaks will be lower and the duration is shorter..Both of those improvements help.

The bottom pic with green line for boost is my tune with the "Boost regulator"...Peaks are drastically reduced
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 11:23:09 AM by AJP turbo »
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 11:38:37 AM »
So how it works...I bought a very small gate...Tial MVS 38mm....It's really all you need..It bleeds off enough air...Think of it as a 1.5" boost leak when required. Then I bought an 38mm dumptube with a v band flange for a tial wastegate....A piece of rad hose. I cut the dumptube to the size I needed but did have to have the vband welded to the dump tube

I put the 17.9 psi spring set in the wastegate and you can see in the pics where I grabbed boost reference from and it only has to go into the bottom of the gate...

There is some special tuning that should go into this..If done wrong your turbo may be trying to hit a boost and the gate will just bleed it off...So if your desired tip is all over the place and your commanded boost is changing throughout the RPM's then you may have problems

I like to have the gate spring about 2 psi  over desired boost...Wastegates start to crack open before the spring rating...If your gate is starting to open then you wont hit your boost and the turbos will be overworked because there is a boost leak basically....If you run the boost commanded well under the spring you put in the wastegate then you aren't getting the benefits of the mod.

You will know it's working properly because at the upshift when boost spikes you will hear air rushing out of the wastegate....Say I'm targeting 16 psi and on my upshift I approach 17.9 psi because of the boost spike, the gate opens and bleeds off boost then when boost falls back to near 16 the gate is closed and all is back to normal

It sounds complicated but it's really not
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
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Offline J-Will

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 05:21:54 AM »
Makes sense to me AJ. Is there no way to replace the stock waste gates with these, or would that require disassembly of the turbos?

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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 05:38:45 AM »
Makes sense to me AJ. Is there no way to replace the stock waste gates with these, or would that require disassembly of the turbos?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Yeah i think there are turbo wastegate replacements available, which i dont see the point of

But this is completely different...so turbo wastegates regulate the speed of the turbos...this is on the charge pipe side...it opens when too much air is going into the engine

You always need wastegates for the turbos...this is independent of that.

Basically you are forced to choose...do you want to keep the throttle open for performance but suffer the symptoms that come with boost spikes..or use throttle to control spikes which slightly maybe hinders performance?...you dont have to choose with this mod
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:35:02 AM by AJP turbo »
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Offline sholxgt

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 02:37:59 PM »
Cool stuff AJP!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a boost limiter valve would work for this as well.  It's built for this intended purpose I think.

I have a supercharged 5.0 Mustang and have researched boost limiter valves for it because my blower is too large for the motor I currently have.  So, I have to run a big pulley which gives me too little boost at lower rpm's.  My plan was to try a smaller pulley to bring boost in sooner and then use a boost limiting valve to bleed boost up higher since the blower flows too much air for the 302.

I think that same device could be used in this case.  The only thing that I'm uncertain of is which one can react quicker.  Maybe a wastegate is quicker?  I think the boost limiting valve can flow more air though.
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Offline EcoPowerParts

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 02:42:01 PM »
I could build a mount into my hot pipes as an option :)
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Offline sholxgt

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 02:51:28 PM »
This mod could have us MKS guys wishing we had the noise generator plumbing.  We would need EPP's hot pipes :)
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 04:12:56 PM »
Sho me what a boost limiter valve is?...they make something called a tq booster for prochargers...its basically the same idea...you over pulley the blower to get low end boost then it bleeds off the amount above what you put in the wastegate spring..

I dont know what can be quicker than this....its a wastegate....the instant boost overcomes the pressure of the diaphragm spring it opens, bleeding off boost.....its a pressure regulator
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 07:05:45 PM by AJP turbo »
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Offline sholxgt

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 04:22:21 PM »
Sho me what a boost limiter valve is?...they make something called a tq booster for prochargers...its basically the same idea...you over pulley the blower to get low end boost then it bleeds off the amount above what you put in the wastegate spring..

I dont know what can be quicker than this....its a wastegate....then instant boost overcomes the pressure of the diaphragm spring it opens, bleeding off boost.....its a pressure regulator


http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/boostlimitervalve.php

I agree about the wastegate being fast.  My fear with the boost limiter is that it may not be as fast, but it can probably handle higher amounts of airflow if needed.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 04:32:35 PM »
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down

Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Dyno
      
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
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Offline EcoPowerParts

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 04:49:46 PM »
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down

Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
I'll get a mount and make you a pipe, you can test and prove it out and then I can offer it. Work?
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 05:25:03 PM »
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down

Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
I'll get a mount and make you a pipe, you can test and prove it out and then I can offer it. Work?

Sure...you saw my pics?..i came off of the noise maker pipe...you talking about a pipe from the intercooler outlet to the throttle body that would have a vband so you can mount the wastegate?

I bought the tial mvs 38mm..its the most compact i think....really dont need a large gate
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
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Offline ZSHO

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 05:30:40 PM »
Pat Pending anyone!!!.  Z   :)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 04:04:00 AM by ZSHO »

                  

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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: tial wastegate for charge piping
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 06:23:18 PM »
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
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Former:2014 PP SHO
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405whp/520tq
Dyno
      
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

 

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