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Torque Knock PID - may have some progress...

Started by ecoboostsho, November 08, 2013, 09:47:16 AM

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ecoboostsho

I've been playing with the PID that we all believe is as follows (as confirmed by 4DR):

Manufacture ID: OEM_FORD
COM Level ID: CommLevel_ISO 14229
Comm Type ID: CAN_COMM
Category: Spark
Name: Knock Sensor
16 Char Name: Knock Sensor
Description: Knock Sensor Retard
Address: 0x3ec
Address size: 2
Units: Degrees
Data Type: Int16
Binary Point: 9
Multiplier: 1

The actual Torque PID is 2203EC as you need to include the mode "22" to request information off the CAN bus.  If anyone is actually using this you do get some weird results just looking at the 'A' variable.  It will jump to 255 and count down at times and other times it will just register a 1 or 2...

It occurred to me that this is probably a two's complement (a way to represent negative numbers in Binary) when I was looking at the forscan.org program and they show "knock" as ranging from negative to positive.  I'm used to reading knock as an absolute from my GM days where if it was knocking it was just pulling timing.  I'm starting to think that this PID is knock but it will showing timing added or pulled due to knock or the lack thereof.

I then did some research and Torque actually supports "signed" numbers!

So for the equation in torque I used the following:

Signed(A)

I won't go in to a big discussion on signed numbers in binary here unless someone really wants me to - you can Google it obviously too.

I did this to see what I would get and sure enough I get a positive and negative number that makes a lot more sense.  Ranging from -5 to +3 so far for me.  I tried a more complicated formula to see if it was using both the A and B variable but it doesn't seem to really use 'B' for anything useful. The formula I used for that test was (Signed(A*256)+B)/8 ended up giving me the same result as the much simpler formula above so it only appears to be using the 'A' variable.

Now the next thing I've noticed is that all of the other scanning programs seem to measure knock in quarter degrees.  (0.25) which would imply there is a divide by 4 in the equation missing.

{Update - 8/8/2014  After further research here with others help I believe we have finally settled on the correct equation.}
By watching the knock PID in another Scan tool I am modifying the formula yet again.  I can't completely figure out the exact value but I am comfortable that the "A" variable will give you knock in 1/2 degree increments.  I suggest everyone updates their PID

So currently I am running with the following equation in Torque:

Signed(A)/2+(B/512)

It seems to be pretty close if not accurate.  Negative numbers right now actually indicate it is adding timing and positive numbers indicate the presence of some knock. Yes this seems somewhat counterintuitive but that is apparently how Ford designed it. (If it bugs you just put a '-' sign in front of the equation but then remember you put it there anytime you have a discussion on the forum) The noted ranges so far seem to go from -5 to +7...consensus on what is safe seems to vary and will probably depend on how modded you are ( A couple of degree running at 18 psi with aftermarket turbos probably wouldn't be great while it may not be a big deal on a relatively "normal" tune running lower boost/timing etc...)



2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

EcoPowerParts

Please include a screen shot of your setup, this would help many, after that I'll try and figure out how to get them out of torque and add them to a csv file so people can follow an easy process to add it.

As far as + and - it's due to the fact that the car will add timing if it doesn't see knock, it's kind of weird but it works that way.
Positive value = timing being pulled
Negative value = timing being ADDED
:)
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
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ecoboostsho

Will do.  Need to grab one from my car later...
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

ecoboostsho

#3
Got the Screenshot!  I did some logging with Forscan and this is pretty close for the Positive numbers...the negative numbers in Torque seem to have additional resolution that I haven't figured out in the equation but this should give everyone a good indication of what is going on at WOT.  You shouldn't have more than a degree or maybe two of knock at WOT...anything higher would make me nervous although this car does seem to react very quickly to knock and seems to be good at saving itself...,

Please note the formula you should be using is -        Signed(A)/2
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

EcoPowerParts

4 degrees and less is considered acceptable 5+ is starting to get worrisome. :)
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

ecoboostsho

Good to know. I hated knock on my GTP so I'm a bit conservative. :)
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

BigPelo

So I need to go in:

torque settings/Manage extra PIDs-Sensors/Add custom sensor

And then copy the info in your screenshot and voila?
Week-end family transporter: 2013 SHO tuxedo black, performance package, unleashed custom 94 octane tune, K&N Typhoon intake, 170F thermostat, 3 bar MAP sensor, SP534 spark plugs, 5000K HID Morimoto mini D2S projectors retrofit, tinted windows, Full LED lighting in and out, Eibach springs
Daily beater: 2002 WRX wagon swap JDM STi v7 20G'd

twnscrw13

Quote from: BigPelo on November 14, 2013, 04:14:17 PM
So I need to go in:

torque settings/Manage extra PIDs-Sensors/Add custom sensor

And then copy the info in your screenshot and voila?

Yes, should work fine then. I mostly see "0" on mine. Sometimes I'll get an odd result like 63.8 or something like that.
2018 PP, blue. Sony, Navi. Stock.... For now.

ecoboostsho

You shouldn't get the 63.8 anymore if you are using the " signed" parameter above
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

twnscrw13

Quote from: ecoboostsho on November 14, 2013, 05:58:07 PM
You shouldn't get the 63.8 anymore if you are using the " signed" parameter above

I actually JUST changed to the 'signed' to the equation. It'll be nice not seeing that anymore! Thank you.
2018 PP, blue. Sony, Navi. Stock.... For now.

bigmoneycloser

Is this something "SHO" specific? Or can. Set this up on the 14 XSport?
Thx
2014 Explorer Sport 401A
22x10.5 Vossen CVT- powder coated Matte Graphite
Pirelli Scorpion Zero Asimmetrico 285/35/22
H & R lowering springs/LMS 93 high boost/AirAid CAI/170* thermostat/3 Bar Map Sensor/Full LED interior /HID head and fog lights/weather tech digital floor mats/SharkFin antena/custom Billet foot pedals/Wilwood big brake kit/ LMS-Corsa CatBack Exhaust/LMS Catted Downpipes

ecoboostsho

Unless they changed the PID or something else on the  CANBUS I see no reason why this wouldn't work for you...
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

bigmoneycloser

When I went to the settings in torque
It warned me..." Saying be sure your info is accurate because adding something in here could turn on off features in vehicle???
Wow...


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2014 Explorer Sport 401A
22x10.5 Vossen CVT- powder coated Matte Graphite
Pirelli Scorpion Zero Asimmetrico 285/35/22
H & R lowering springs/LMS 93 high boost/AirAid CAI/170* thermostat/3 Bar Map Sensor/Full LED interior /HID head and fog lights/weather tech digital floor mats/SharkFin antena/custom Billet foot pedals/Wilwood big brake kit/ LMS-Corsa CatBack Exhaust/LMS Catted Downpipes

BiGMaC

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on February 03, 2014, 10:31:06 AM
When I went to the settings in torque
It warned me..." Saying be sure your info is accurate because adding something in here could turn on off features in vehicle???
Wow...

Wow is right!  That's plain scary!   :hypo:  Could it corrupt a tune... or safety programming?  :hmmm:

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

ecoboostsho

That's a pretty standard disclaimer.  You won't be corrupting a tune with it.  You could accidentally update something (say unlocking your doors etc...) that wasn't intended.  I suppose it may shut the car off but this is only if you are typing random things in to this field - and as the app states you shouldn't do that.  There is relatively low risk in my opinion since mostly what you are doing is reading data not updating it...
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile