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Testing Air Oil seperators

Started by ShoBoat, April 10, 2014, 10:59:52 PM

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Tuner Boost

Panther, your correct. The water accumulation (well water, oil, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, etc. mix) is what causes the shudder....and plug gap as well needs to be .028-.030.  When sudden full boost is applied it forces this mix into the intake manifold in a big "gulp" and that can cause hydro-lock as well. The RX system fixes all of that.



Quote from: JimiJak on April 14, 2014, 11:31:03 PM
I have four big questions for TunerBoost: Or anyone else able to provide accurate information

1. Is the rear PCV valve just a check valve, or is it mechanical? What causes this valve to "close" while under boost? How does the additional vacuum supplied by the intake pipe lines on the Rx system, re-open the closed PCV valve?
It is a positive closing checkvalve (referred in the parts list as a PCV valve).  As soon as vacuum is not present and any boost is occuring it closes and then NO evacuation takes place.  What FoMoCo is refering to is pressure venting out the clean side. That is not evacuation. It would have to have a fresh air source the opposite flow to evacuate, and that does not. They refer to it in PR releases as evacuating but that is a spin when asked about the mistake in design.

2. Why not install a check valve in the clean side line to prevent ALL backflow into the CAC?
Good question.  When the brief transition from non-boost to boost occurs there is a short period that the flow will reverse (only a few seconds) so we need to leave a unrestricted path for pressure to relive.

3. Would re-routing the catch can to a location in front of the radiator be beneficial due to increased condensation, or detrimental due to decreased flow caused by too much hose distance?
No. We even have them mounted in the back of road race cars, etc. as long as it is not obstructed (kinked lines, etc.)

4. Is there a way to proved true positive pressure through the clean side rather than just minimal vacuum, and would that be beneficial?

We never want pressure in the crankcase. There are brief periods where it is unavoidable, but the goal is vacuum/suction at all times to avoid seal failure issues, oil leaks, and to prevent the parasitic power loss of the pistons moving down in the bore having to fight that pressure.

Here is how GM does it with their turbos. They actually have a circuit cast/machined into the turbo intake side housing to provide this:


What GM's mistake was they relied totally on the turbo inlet suction for evacuation and no intake manifold vacuum so it does not evac at idle and low throttle causing similar, but less  issues as the EB. The systems we do for GM just tie into the intake manifold vacuum to correct those.

That is where Ford went wrong. They expected this to work like a NA engines PCV system, or the PD Blower applications that do not have this issue (and Ford does great with).  And since they are now focusing on the 2.7 turbo for the future, I dont think they will revise production at this stage just as they did not do the simple fix of the 6.0 diesel (weak head bolts...simple ARP head stud replacement cured the issue, and that was a huge debacle). They will just discontinue this engine (which is crazy IMHO as the engine is amazing).


And last, a NA engine will have (depending on the cam profile) 18-22" of vacuum at idle or deceleration, a turbo will usually not see more than 8-12" at idle or deceleration.  But either as soon as you go WOT there is no vacuum.  The turbo due to boost, and NA due to reversion pulses from valve overlap move into the IM and defeat any measurable vacuum, but only at WOT.

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: Tuner Boost on April 15, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
Panther, your correct. The water accumulation (well water, oil, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, etc. mix) is what causes the shudder....and plug gap as well needs to be .028-.030.  When sudden full boost is applied it forces this mix into the intake manifold in a big "gulp" and that can cause hydro-lock as well. The RX system fixes all of that.
This is what I'm having trouble with in the "animation". It appears under boost that everything just reverses which I feel is too simplistic and doesn't really tell the whole story. It also shows air being diverted from the IM to PVC but I don't really understand how the crap is removed from the rest of the charge which apparently is the problem?

Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, this is the first time I've actually bothered to understand how a PVC system works.

dalum

Quote from: JimiJak on April 14, 2014, 10:28:12 PM
It's been a long day...but why not put a check valve on the clean side line??

Also, I'm confused; I know the system must be self-containable, but why are we trying to supply positive pressure into the crankcase with a line connected to an area with vacuum?

Exactly  :banghead:
2013 Non-PP SHO

Tuner Boost

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 15, 2014, 01:09:13 PM
Quote from: Tuner Boost on April 15, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
Panther, your correct. The water accumulation (well water, oil, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, etc. mix) is what causes the shudder....and plug gap as well needs to be .028-.030.  When sudden full boost is applied it forces this mix into the intake manifold in a big "gulp" and that can cause hydro-lock as well. The RX system fixes all of that.
This is what I'm having trouble with in the "animation". It appears under boost that everything just reverses which I feel is too simplistic and doesn't really tell the whole story. It also shows air being diverted from the IM to PVC but I don't really understand how the crap is removed from the rest of the charge which apparently is the problem?

Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, this is the first time I've actually bothered to understand how a PVC system works.

No problem.


The video is great to understand the function of a PCV system in general. The damaging compounds that are combustion by-products and are introduced to the crankcase as part of the blow-by all engines experience.  In the video they do a good job of explaining the pressure, evacuation functions, and clean air that must enter the opposite bank that the foul vapors are evacuated from (or sucked out from).

Pressure is to be avoided at all costs, so as long as the intake manifold vacuum is providing suction to constantly be removing these vapors as soon as they enter, all is good. But with a turbo system, there is only vacuum (suction) present when no boost is being made. And with the ecoboost since the turbos are small and efficient, they spool very quickly and begin to produce boost as soon as any throttle is applied. When this happens, then there is no vacuum in the intake manifold, only pressure. So all evacuation halts. The checkvalve closes (if it didn't, the boost would flow into that cam cover and pressurize the crankcase immediately causing oil leaks and failed seals) so at that time on, until back at idle and no boost, there is not suction/evacuation taking place to continue removing these compouns as the video shows should be.  So a turbo or centri SC system is unique in this way.  So then since all evacuation has halted. These vapors quickly accumulate (avg PCV system pulls 400-500 CFM of flow out steadily, so it takes only a few seconds to fill the crankcase with concentrations of this gunk) and begin mixing with the ebgine oil, etc.  Now, all engine have blow-by. So after a few minutes this blow-by creates pressure in the crankcase and it has to go somewhere, so it seeks the path of least resistance, and that is "out the inlet" pushing some of this mix (not all...and that is why it is damaging mixed with the oil, etc.) into the turbo inlet on the cleanside where it is pushed (after sucked past the turbo) into the CAC and condense into this accumulation.

Also, on the cleanside. We must allow this to be able to flow both ways to make sure any pressure that could build during the brief transition from non-boost to boost (until the turbo inlet suction takes over on the RX mod) so any pressure can escape.

FoMoCoSHO

Tuner Boost,

I assume by your response you know the specific animation I'm referring too?

So here's a dumb question....What constitutes "under boost"?

I always thought anything over zero was considered boost and anything under is vacuum.

Cause I feel like I'm really not in boost that often. (well at least when I'm driving like a normal human)  :)

And I feel like that was Ford's strategy....they assumed that most of the time the car would be under vacuum most of the time which would pull the gunk that did get in the tube when we're getting on it.

Maybe they underestimated how their target market would actually drive these cars?


JimiJak

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Tuner Boost,

I assume by your response you know the specific animation I'm referring too?

So here's a dumb question....What constitutes "under boost"?

I always thought anything over zero was considered boost and anything under is vacuum.

Cause I feel like I'm really not in boost that often. (well at least when I'm driving like a normal human)  :)

And I feel like that was Ford's strategy....they assumed that most of the time the car would be under vacuum most of the time which would pull the gunk that did get in the tube when we're getting on it.

Maybe they underestimated how their target market would actually drive these cars?
I know this question wasn't directed at me...but I'm offering my $0.02 on this topic.

Are your eBOVs VTA?
Mine are, and even just in driving around, I notice how often the eBOVs open to relieve pressure. In the past Tracy's mentioned typical driving resulting in being under boost 80% of the time...I'm inclined to think that's probably pretty accurate.
"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." - Eleanor Roosevelt

2014 XSport Black Betty Build

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: JimiJak on April 16, 2014, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Tuner Boost,

I assume by your response you know the specific animation I'm referring too?

So here's a dumb question....What constitutes "under boost"?

I always thought anything over zero was considered boost and anything under is vacuum.

Cause I feel like I'm really not in boost that often. (well at least when I'm driving like a normal human)  :)

And I feel like that was Ford's strategy....they assumed that most of the time the car would be under vacuum most of the time which would pull the gunk that did get in the tube when we're getting on it.

Maybe they underestimated how their target market would actually drive these cars?
I know this question wasn't directed at me...but I'm offering my $0.02 on this topic.

Are your eBOVs VTA?
Mine are, and even just in driving around, I notice how often the eBOVs open to relieve pressure. In the past Tracy's mentioned typical driving resulting in being under boost 80% of the time...I'm inclined to think that's probably pretty accurate.
All $.02 gladly accepted...

The more I research, the more I'm swinging toward Tracy's side, Ford may have effed up.

Me spending $500 to correct a design flaw is a bit hard to swallow.

There is a condition that I have where if I'm playing on the highway, romping on the gas and lifting repeatedly then the car will start to hesitate and lose throttle response, as in none. I think crash has also alluded to this behavior. I also know of an Ecoboost cruiser exhibiting this behavior, I have always though it was the ECU getting confused, Now I'm not so sure.

I may very well end up with an RX system on my car, but a trip to the dealership is in order first.

I'm gonna have them pull my fresh air tube and the tube on the turbo inlet.

Assuming oil is found, I'm very curious what their response will be.











ShoBoat

#97
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2014, 10:05:33 PM
Quote from: JimiJak on April 16, 2014, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Tuner Boost,

I assume by your response you know the specific animation I'm referring too?

So here's a dumb question....What constitutes "under boost"?

I always thought anything over zero was considered boost and anything under is vacuum.

Cause I feel like I'm really not in boost that often. (well at least when I'm driving like a normal human)  :)

And I feel like that was Ford's strategy....they assumed that most of the time the car would be under vacuum most of the time which would pull the gunk that did get in the tube when we're getting on it.

Maybe they underestimated how their target market would actually drive these cars?
I know this question wasn't directed at me...but I'm offering my $0.02 on this topic.

Are your eBOVs VTA?
Mine are, and even just in driving around, I notice how often the eBOVs open to relieve pressure. In the past Tracy's mentioned typical driving resulting in being under boost 80% of the time...I'm inclined to think that's probably pretty accurate.
All $.02 gladly accepted...

The more I research, the more I'm swinging toward Tracy's side, Ford may have effed up.

Me spending $500 to correct a design flaw is a bit hard to swallow.

There is a condition that I have where if I'm playing on the highway, romping on the gas and lifting repeatedly then the car will start to hesitate and lose throttle response, as in none. I think crash has also alluded to this behavior. I also know of an Ecoboost cruiser exhibiting this behavior, I have always though it was the ECU getting confused, Now I'm not so sure.

I may very well end up with an RX system on my car, but a trip to the dealership is in order first.

I'm gonna have them pull my fresh air tube and the tube on the turbo inlet.

Assuming oil is found, I'm very curious what their response will be.


Do you want the official response? The same one that I got? "Some oil being present in the intake tubes is normal, this is due to the intended design of the PCV system. This should not be taken for any abnormal issues with the operation of the system." Ok then tell me what is normal and what is not? How about when it effects the performance of the car? The next time you are out "playing" at higher speeds, when you get home, remove the intake tube from the TB and inspect the tube and TB for "excessive oil". I don't know who to believe anymore, FMC and some of the engine builders say it's normal. Others say it's not, and we get effed trying to figure out what to do and who to believe. 

One other thing, most of the people that drive an EB powered car or truck will not "get on it" like most of us will. They will go to pass a guy once in a while and notice a small shudder or hesitation and think nothing of it. I guess if anything that is what they are counting on. Kinda like the 2 engineers at GM with the ignition locks that was linked to 13 deaths and denied it for 10 years on a $0.50 part and not calling a recall. That's what they call a calculated risk.
2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.

JimiJak

Alan Mulally - The guy that turned Ford around...made a Global Ford, and denied the bailout money: has done incredible things with the brand, and I believe he's a great leader, and a marketing genius...however...
with all that being said; Mulally has summarized what the Ford customer wants into 5 areas: Quality. Fuel efficiency. Safety. Smart design. Value.

and unfortunately none of those are performance. So I agree, the members of this forum are in the minority, by a long shot.

This gives you an idea where Ford's sights are set...and it's no wonder they've made a performance engine that truly performs, featuring one huge oversight.

Although, you have to wonder; is there just not enough money in a motor that should run without a hitch for 300K-400,000 miles? Maybe it wasn't an oversight after all... Just seems funny to me that a company loaded with brilliant engineers would design such a fantastic piece of functional, high performance, reliable, artwork...and yet "fail" to recognize a simple PCV system failure.
"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." - Eleanor Roosevelt

2014 XSport Black Betty Build

SHOdded

At least $.04 of excellent insight :D
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SwampRat

Ford will never admit to this being an issue / design flaw because it'll open  up a new feeding frenzy for the Land Sharks.
2013 SHO  ....  not mine anymore

2021 Edge ST

POPSTAGE2

#101
Quote from: JimiJak on April 17, 2014, 01:27:10 AM
Alan Mulally - The guy that turned Ford around...made a Global Ford, and denied the bailout money: has done incredible things with the brand, and I believe he's a great leader, and a marketing genius...however...
with all that being said; Mulally has summarized what the Ford customer wants into 5 areas: Quality. Fuel efficiency. Safety. Smart design. Value.

and unfortunately none of those are performance. So I agree, the members of this forum are in the minority, by a long shot.

This gives you an idea where Ford's sights are set...and it's no wonder they've made a performance engine that truly performs, featuring one huge oversight.

Although, you have to wonder; is there just not enough money in a motor that should run without a hitch for 300K-400,000 miles? Maybe it wasn't an oversight after all... Just seems funny to me that a company loaded with brilliant engineers would design such a fantastic piece of functional, high performance, reliable, artwork...and yet "fail" to recognize a simple PCV system failure.

I agree with what you say...except I don't believe it's a simple oversight. Maybe you're right, but just how would the engineers design a PCV system to meet EPA without a catch can of some sort?

I stand by what Tracy stated in that the oem's designed the pcv system this way because there is no other way (maybe economical way?) without using some sort of catch can.

I also think the engineers are well aware of the "situation" of the PCV system and either eccept it themselves or are made to except it by the bean counters.

Lets start from a clean sheet so to speak. How would one ventilate the crankcase meeting EPA?

On a side note, I know most over the road trucks have a manual drain on the intercooler...but that's a whole different animal.
99 500HP LIGHTNING
03 SD 6.0
14 EXPLORER SPORT
AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER MUSCLE / DRAG CARS

JimiJak

Quote from: POPSTAGE2 on April 17, 2014, 10:09:53 AM
Lets start from a clean sheet so to speak. How would one ventilate the crankcase meeting EPA?

Well for starters, having a PCV system that doesn't undergo any kind of reversion that dumps crap into the CAC while flowing backwards. Having a system that "closes" under boost is bad business...
"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." - Eleanor Roosevelt

2014 XSport Black Betty Build

Tuner Boost

Hi Gang,

Start with the EB engine and when it is in boost.  The turbos on the EB are small and very efficient, and they begin to spool up as soon as you apply any throttle, and that is where the good low and mid range power comes from. Excellent design by the engineers. So there is really when measured at the intake manifold only vacuum (and low vacuum at that, 6-9") at idle and even low throttle (not enough to cruise and maintain speed) there is only 1-3" we can measure.  As soon as we even lightly accelerate there is .5-1# of boost, and the check valve in the valve cover has closes as soon as it see's even a fraction of a # of pressure or 0 vac.  So 80% of the operating time is conservative. It is probably closer to 90% of the time, but lets say 80%.  There should never be more than a few seconds of non evacuation taking place anytime.  That is why even with the RX PCV mod, you will have that brief transition from non-boost to boost when some pressure does build in the crankcase thus the cleanside spearator has to allow flow both ways. But were talking seconds VS most of the time as stock.

Now, the engineers know very well the how and why of all of this, but just as most of you that work for a big company, rarely can you go above your immediate supervisors head and argue something be done differently....it is not good for job security. The auto makers are the worst.  So what happened is the PCV system is closed, and meets EPS guidelines even though it is designed the same as a naturally aspirated engine such as the 5.0 or 6.2, and the top mount supercharger cobra and GT500's that all work great. So somewhere a mid management decision maker along with the bean counters decided (NOT the very talented and skilled engineers, they know better) "we dont need to reinvent the wheel here. it passes EPA regs and works on the other engines, so this is how were doing it". and of course any engineers that argued, really did not have a good day. Just the politics of how this works from the industry side.  So, once the engines and vehicles are in production, just like GM and the inexpensive ignition switch issue, change does not happen easy, and I can bet right now there will be no real change as all the work is now on the 2.7 eb that will replace the 3.5. Just as happened with the 6.0 diesel. All Ford had to do was replace the head bolts with ARP studs and the engine was fine, yet I wasted $52,000 on a new F350 crew cab loaded with every option possible and Ford voided my warranty because I had a K&N filter on it.  (Lincoln dealer honored it and replaced engine twice until I finally did the head studs to correct the issue at the source). So what did Ford do? for 100k miles replace entire engines instead of a inexpensive proven solution. And then dropped the engine.  And they are not alone, this is STANDARD in the entire industry.  It cost millions and millions to make a .02 cent change. They will never admit to an issue (unless sued by the NTSB), and then dance around all sorts of spin.

I can tell you dozens and dozens of examples over the years since the Pinto and the Pontiac sport wheels paint flaking off in the 70's up through today on all makes/models.

So, the EB PCV system is the same as a 5.0 NA engine, and that cannot work period as any turbo system pressurizes the IM and the IM vacuum is what is relied on with this design.



dalum

Is pressure on the IM what closes the check valve in the valve cover?  Just wondering since the Rx can would fix that problem.
2013 Non-PP SHO