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What is really important in a turbo intake?

Started by 91hybrid, January 22, 2015, 09:46:35 PM

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91hybrid

I was playing around with some data thinking about intakes and what really matters. What I figured out was that turbo outlet temps is all that matters. Some may not know that air that is pulled in by the compressor has work done to it. This work or energy cannot be created or destroyed, so it is converted from mechanical energy to heat. This heat makes the compressed air exiting the turbo much hotter than the air that entered.

There are three key indicators that control exit temperatures:

Inlet temp
Pressure ratio (outlet pressure (psia)/(inlet pressure (psia))
And compressor efficiency (from map)

In this example I theorized a smaller turbo setup supplying about 12-14 psi to the manifold (14psi at turbo exit), atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi, and since our turbos are tiny they will be on the high side of the map in the 68% efficiency range.



For "stock baseline" I assumed that there was 14.7 psia at the inlet (no restriction) with the same 68% efficiency and 14 psi turbo exit boost.

Then I theoretically put on a restrictive intake reducing the inlet pressure to 12.7 psia from 14.7 psia while all other factors were held constant. This line is listed as "-2 inlet restriction".

Lastly I sprung for some theoretical atp turbos and went from the far end of the compressor map at 68% to the meat of the compressor map at 75% while leaving every thing else as the same as the stock. Labeled as "high efficiency"

As you can see sucking in 20 degree hotter air than ambient resulted in a 26 deg rise in exit temperature. While restricting the intake and have cool air resulted in a 40 degree rise in exit temperature.

Lastly the high efficiency turbos lowered the exit temperature 16 deg on a 70 degree day vs the baseline.

I hope this can illustrate that not only does intake temps matter, but inlet flow matters too as it will raise exit temperatures as much, if not more than inlet temps.

Those sweet atp's may not be worth the cost of you don't plan on pushing past the stockers capability.

John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2014 SHO -PP, Unleashed Tuned, 3bar, Devils Own 100% meth, PPE catted down pipes, 3rd cat delete, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, 170 deg, NGK 7's plugs, hot pipes - White Platinum 401a
418 whp - 513 wlb/ft
non meth 13.11@103.6 (knock limited)
Meth pass 11.991@114.28

ZSHO

Excellent analysis John,its findings and readings could fluctuate depending if your at sea level or up in the Rocky mountains,sea level would be 14.7,pounds per square in absolute,my basic question is wouldnt the readings change in high altitude,compared to sea level and would that play a significant role.


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

panther427

also humidity plays a roll on the thermal effeciency of IC.
2013 SHO

SHOnUup

Awesome write up.

Only 7% more efficient with the turbo upgrade?

Rich
2011 Sterling Gray Metallic SHO non PP,
12.4211 @ 110.28 Livernois 3bar tune & CAI,
Added since...PPE catless Dpipes, Megan coilovers, Powergrid adjustable end links, and EBC slotted rotors and red stuff pads.
Tommy Designs grille with carbon fiber hydrographics, fender badges and fog bezels hydrodipped also, tinted windows, head & taillights, debadged trunk with all chrome plasti-dipped, black calipers, obdlink mx scantool running torque pro on 7" tablet.

91hybrid

Quote from: ZSHO on January 22, 2015, 10:57:17 PM
Excellent analysis John,its findings and readings could fluctuate depending if your at sea level or up in the Rocky mountains,sea level would be 14.7,pounds per square in absolute,my basic question is wouldnt the readings change in high altitude,compared to sea level and would that play a significant role.


The -2 psia test just happens to be the atmospheric pressure at 4000 foot, and 10,000 foot the psia is 10.1 psi which would drive the pressure ratio up higher requiring more work to hit the same boost target resulting in higher outlet temperatures. Anything that drives the pressure ratio up means the exit temperature is going up as well.
2014 SHO -PP, Unleashed Tuned, 3bar, Devils Own 100% meth, PPE catted down pipes, 3rd cat delete, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, 170 deg, NGK 7's plugs, hot pipes - White Platinum 401a
418 whp - 513 wlb/ft
non meth 13.11@103.6 (knock limited)
Meth pass 11.991@114.28

91hybrid

Quote from: SHOnUup on January 22, 2015, 11:03:45 PM
Awesome write up.

Only 7% more efficient with the turbo upgrade?

Rich

Depends on where you are on the map. Most maps do go below 60%. And most turbos are no better than 75%. I guess you could drive a turbo to extremes and hit below 50% but that temp would be insane and do would the shaft rpms.

I was just playing with a normal flow requirement keeping things equal.
2014 SHO -PP, Unleashed Tuned, 3bar, Devils Own 100% meth, PPE catted down pipes, 3rd cat delete, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, 170 deg, NGK 7's plugs, hot pipes - White Platinum 401a
418 whp - 513 wlb/ft
non meth 13.11@103.6 (knock limited)
Meth pass 11.991@114.28

ZSHO

#6
I recall a while back,correct me if i;m wring,it was pertaining to your turbos,loosing boost psi,did you ever get the issue resolved,or are you the type thats hesitant to go to the dealer like most are.


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

91hybrid

Quote from: ZSHO on January 23, 2015, 06:58:53 AM
I recall a while back,correct me if i;m wring,it was pertaining to your turbos,loosing boost psi,did you ever get the issue resolved,or are you the type thats hesitant to go to the dealer like most are.

I never had any issue loosing pressure; I do have compressor seals that leak oil into the compressor housing however. Having large pressure differentials on the inlet and turbo center section (caused buy restrictive intakes or clogged filters along with oil pressure to high and poor oil return line design)is also problematic in oil passing by the compressor seal.

I am anti dealer as I have trust issues especially when I'm as talented or more talented at a task. I won't do surgery (as I'm not a doctor), but I'll wrench all day!
2014 SHO -PP, Unleashed Tuned, 3bar, Devils Own 100% meth, PPE catted down pipes, 3rd cat delete, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, 170 deg, NGK 7's plugs, hot pipes - White Platinum 401a
418 whp - 513 wlb/ft
non meth 13.11@103.6 (knock limited)
Meth pass 11.991@114.28

MDesign Performance

Quote from: 91hybrid on January 23, 2015, 08:16:39 AMI am anti dealer as I have trust issues especially when I'm as talented or more talented at a task. I won't do surgery (as I'm not a doctor), but I'll wrench all day!

^I thought I was the only one with that mentality!

I believe we need to find another turbo that is similar to ours in size, albeit slightly larger, and adapt it to fit on our system. Some turbos that come to mind are the 14b from the 1G 1991-94 DSM's as that was an upgrade for the 2G 1995-99 DSM's small T25 turbo, which I think is similar to our stock turbos.
2011 MKS EcoBoost: MDesign Carbon Cold Air Intake; SP-534 Plugs; Power Stop C/S Rotors

sales@mdesignperformance.com
www.mdesignperformance.com
www.facebook.com/MDesignPerformance

BiGMaC

Quote from: MDesign on January 23, 2015, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 23, 2015, 08:16:39 AMI am anti dealer as I have trust issues especially when I'm as talented or more talented at a task. I won't do surgery (as I'm not a doctor), but I'll wrench all day!

^I thought I was the only one with that mentality!

I believe we need to find another turbo that is similar to ours in size, albeit slightly larger, and adapt it to fit on our system. Some turbos that come to mind are the 14b from the 1G 1991-94 DSM's as that was an upgrade for the 2G 1995-99 DSM's small T25 turbo, which I think is similar to our stock turbos.

There's an ATP that is a bolt-on.

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

MDesign Performance

Quote from: BiGMaC on January 23, 2015, 11:27:24 AM
Quote from: MDesign on January 23, 2015, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 23, 2015, 08:16:39 AMI am anti dealer as I have trust issues especially when I'm as talented or more talented at a task. I won't do surgery (as I'm not a doctor), but I'll wrench all day!

^I thought I was the only one with that mentality!

I believe we need to find another turbo that is similar to ours in size, albeit slightly larger, and adapt it to fit on our system. Some turbos that come to mind are the 14b from the 1G 1991-94 DSM's as that was an upgrade for the 2G 1995-99 DSM's small T25 turbo, which I think is similar to our stock turbos.

There's an ATP that is a bolt-on.

I assumed it was upgraded components installed in the OEM turbos, not the case?

It would be fairly easy to mount a turbo to our manifolds, you would need a turbo with the same flange or an adapter plate which would open up doors. I believe it would just come down to changes in IC piping routing and room for a larger turbo.
2011 MKS EcoBoost: MDesign Carbon Cold Air Intake; SP-534 Plugs; Power Stop C/S Rotors

sales@mdesignperformance.com
www.mdesignperformance.com
www.facebook.com/MDesignPerformance

BiGMaC

Quote from: MDesign on January 23, 2015, 03:34:24 PM
Quote from: BiGMaC on January 23, 2015, 11:27:24 AM
Quote from: MDesign on January 23, 2015, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 23, 2015, 08:16:39 AMI am anti dealer as I have trust issues especially when I'm as talented or more talented at a task. I won't do surgery (as I'm not a doctor), but I'll wrench all day!

^I thought I was the only one with that mentality!

I believe we need to find another turbo that is similar to ours in size, albeit slightly larger, and adapt it to fit on our system. Some turbos that come to mind are the 14b from the 1G 1991-94 DSM's as that was an upgrade for the 2G 1995-99 DSM's small T25 turbo, which I think is similar to our stock turbos.
The ones I mention are larger with a high blade angle.... There is an ungraded OEM available through Mike B... He also has the ATPs I mentioned.

There's an ATP that is a bolt-on.

I assumed it was upgraded components installed in the OEM turbos, not the case?

It would be fairly easy to mount a turbo to our manifolds, you would need a turbo with the same flange or an adapter plate which would open up doors. I believe it would just come down to changes in IC piping routing and room for a larger turbo.

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

91hybrid

The atp's use a Garrett center section with bored and remachined stock compressor and exhaust housings to use +3 mm compressor turbine and I can't remember the size increase on the exhaust. Currently the only option available for something bigger.

But I was really was trying to point out that there are not huge gains by switching turbos if your not going to press 17 or less psi. 17+ there's efficency gains and cooler discharge temps to be had with the atp's.
2014 SHO -PP, Unleashed Tuned, 3bar, Devils Own 100% meth, PPE catted down pipes, 3rd cat delete, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, 170 deg, NGK 7's plugs, hot pipes - White Platinum 401a
418 whp - 513 wlb/ft
non meth 13.11@103.6 (knock limited)
Meth pass 11.991@114.28